PFI/PPP Workstream Meeting 11-02-2025

PFI/PPP WORKSTREAM MEETING 11-02-2025

GEORGE STEVENSON Paul Deverill, where are you from?

PAUL DEVERILL I’m from Grant Thornton, I can across this on LinkedIn.

GEORGE STEVENSON There’s a sort of background to this, Paul, that would help you to understand some of the context. But rather than putting everybody else through it maybe we catch up a one-to-one separately after this. I’m just seeing who else is new.

RICHARD DENNIS I am new, I work with AMY in their complex facilities division and have been leading a life cycle validation programme for them for the last number of months. One of my team got wind of this. Andrew Perry and I know each other, but my programme has been at the divisional level, Andrew is down in the account level.

RAAKESH TAILOR I’m from the London Borough, I’m currently working on a housing transformation project, so we’re looking at different systems, asset management, lifecycle information management, BIMs, all of these different things. We’re trying to move away from what we’ve got now to go to something more modern. I was on the last session.

GEORGE STEVENSON (shares screen). We’ve been going for 4 years now as both BIM4Housing and also BIM In Asset Management. We’ve got a number of different working groups which actually the PFI is a working group because the workstreams are task and finish exercises. For example, this last 6 months or so, we’ve had a workstream looking at digital records, business case and interoperability and we’ve produced an output from those. It doesn’t mean that we’ve solved all of the issues, but it means that we’ve actually produced something that people can work with. The ones that we’ve got current, there’s the O&M standardisation which includes doing something on technical submittals to standardise things.

We’ve got digital asset capture which is revolutionising the way that people are using 360 photography instead of relying on BIM models being completed, particularly useful for existing buildings, and also the wider golden thread aspect. What we’re doing today is the initial PFI meeting, the objective is to understand what challenges collectively operators, and also clients and trusts have got, with a PFI, especially with the impending handback coming through. So, how can we do some of these things without everything resorting or ending up with the legal people. Really looking at things from a point of view of how can we work collaboratively to deliver what actually is needed at the end of the day. Which is probably better asset information and safer buildings.

We’ve also got an international working group which has not had its first meeting yet, but we’ve already got somethings underway in Hong Kong where we’re going to be encouraging people to pull together and offer services out there. And one last thing is that we’ve got in a week’s time a session called impact. That’s looking at what the financial and business impact is of incomplete information. I’m going to hand over now to Matt for him to go through things.

MATT WILKIE This is the first meeting and I think it’s important to actually understand where everybody has got their pain points etc, rather than me structuring it in a way where I can direct it the way I would like it, where it would be interesting actually to get everybody’s input because you may have different pain points to me. And we’ll work through this as larger project over time because I can see lots of sub=meetings and ideas coming out of this and maybe separate workgroups. But also with the stuff that George is doing as well, things like the golden thread will overlap onto some of the stuff that we’re looking at. And it’s actually to make sure that we keep everything connected so that we don’t need to be reinventing the wheel. There’s another group already working on that, we may be interested in the outputs or actually getting involved in that other group.

So, I’ll just start with a basic presentation. This is the PFI/PPP handover group, and I think we’ll keep int broad in that sense simply because it is around finances, it is around the data management, it is around asset management. Everything encapsulates that from day 1 to the end where things have sort of transitioned over time because obviously when all of these projects were put together, probably around 2007, a lot of the landscape has changed. Especially around things like energy management etc, a lot of these contracts never even took into account energy management. So, the main thing for me is that try and keep it open ended at the minute and then as we start going through the different meetings and different ideas we start to hone in on that and develop it as a group.

The first things I put together today was a few ideas to get it started which is what is the group for? My view is it’s not just about the asset management side, we’ve got the commercial side, you’ve got all stakeholders which is the local authorities, the NHS, tenants. We’ve got to get all parties involved because the problems that exist affect everybody. And I think the bigger picture on this is that the contracts were quite rigid initially, but obviously were quite vague in many places. So, the collaboration is an important piece for a) the handbacks, but b) if we’re going to go through let’s call it PFI 2.0 it’s all of the learning that went on there.

So that’s important, the group is for everybody, you don’t have to all be technical because it’s understanding the pain points for everybody because not everybody sees the same information in the same way or needs it in the same way. The next one is what are the PFI pain points? I think this is an important point from different aspects because operations, it’s obviously more around KPIs, compliance, financial implications etc. From an asset data management point of view it’s about the condition of the data, what format the data is in, how it’s maintained, how variations are managed, how changes are managed and how we originally receive the data. Because let’s face it, the next point asset structures is a good example

Most of these from what I’ve seen have come in as BCIS which is very high level which means they often don’t have the level of detail that you need to be operational. But also managing the changes etc become more complicated, or something just exists around year 12-15 when suddenly people realise there’s problems in the modelling. So, this is another area where we can look at how we fix it, where the problems are etc. Then we’re looking at the BIM and CAFM integration because a lot of this stuff out there I see on the FM side is very light on the BIM. I also see it’s very light just generally on CAD and keeping drawings up-to-date. So, I think we need to look at how we can make that easier and maybe some standardisation for improvements.

And then this then rolls on to the surveys and gap analysis because obviously the CAFM data is reliant on good data going in, good data comes out. In the same way the BIM management and the asset structures all sort of pull together, means that the formatting, the structure of the information, it should overtime be transitional with constant improvements. So, everything that we experience is not a singular event, so if you do an asset survey now, it doesn’t mean that’s be all and end all. In reality you’re probably going to pick out thousands plus new assets that you didn’t know existed, and then there’s the challenges around who owns them, when were they installed, all of the other bits and pieces. So, when there is a next survey there may be changes that occur during that time as well. They’re just basically to get the meeting moving as original points to get things started.

And I’ve added my email there, so if anybody wants to email direct or wants to get involved more, want to do presentations, want to talk about certain events, you can either talk to myself or George. In the same way, if anybody wants to discuss anything specifically then please fell free.

GEORGE STEVENSON Part of the process is that what we’ve got in BIM In Asset Management and in BIM4Housing, that’s more focused on residential, is a collection of people who are subject matter experts who have got a lot of knowledge and you’ve probably got some really good answers to some of the things that people are struggling with. But the difficulty is at an industry level it’s difficult to implement some of those things because you’re working in either a contractual environment or in a business environment where it’s difficult to get some new things implemented. And also there’s other people in the supply chain who also need to be influenced.

I chaired the Golden Thread Initiative asset & survey information group 3 years ago and we were able to distill quite a lot of expertise from the industry and provide it back to the government. And that went into the BRAC working group which has resulted in the golden thread guidance, so we can be influential as a collective. PFI, there’s the IPA is the governing body now, if there are things that we could look at collectively that we could then feedback to them, there’s an opportunity to make some changes. One of the things that, for example, everybody struggles with are room data sheets. Room data sheets are a critical contractual requirement that a lot of people have got to keep up-to-date, but the original information probably wasn’t brilliant.

Also, there’s fundamentally misunderstanding about what room dead sheets contain because they came, certainly in the health service and also in education in schools, and I know about schools because we produced them originally for the Department for Education. It was largely as a briefing tool for the internal fit out of the spaces to satisfy or to support the activities that are going to be carried out there. So, it was never intended that the room data sheets would include the key maintainable M&E assets, for example. But when you get into operations it’s logical that those should be included and the other elements that need maintaining. So, there’s a route there to transform what is being managed.

Clearly we’ve still got to make sure that contractually, because the room data sheets that were produced, we’re working at Manchester Royal Infirmary at the moment where the room data sheets were defined 20 years ago and I think there’s another 20 years on that particular PFI. So, they’ve got to be kept up-to-date, but what’s the original baseline that they were working to. And what I find, every PFI project that we work on, the taxonomy and the way room data sheet assets and information is produced is different. Because a different architect will have used a different implementation of ADB, for example, that suited the way they worked. That’s just one example, but it’s one that is anybody else having challenges with room data sheets?

MATT WILKIE I’ve got to admit myself the RDSs are problematic on a lot of my estates simply because the RDSs don’t actually match the as-built. So, the room numbers aren’t the same room numbers in the building, plus there’s building parts in rooms and others have been installed in different ways. So, lifts where there wasn’t lifts and things like that, so it will make it difficult at handback if it’s not resolved because you need to get to one version of the truth, the earlier the better.

PIERRE VENTER My concern, Matt, is around the whole BIM process, the whole design, engineering, construction and operations process, every single part. And it’s a series of layers, the room data sheets are important from day one because they define what are the contents of the room, or the space. I am joining the two together because IFC will talk about spaces. But the important part is that sharing that as it goes down the development through into construction, and eventually ends up as a series of products as part of the procurement process. So, it’s a much more holistic process, it’s one of the Lego blocks of the whole development.

So, it really doesn’t matter about which PPP PFI whatever, just good design processes, we have a room data set which consists of all the room types that might be in a particular project type. So, we’re already starting with some information that we didn’t have before and out of that I think it’s the baseline or the benchmark that allows you to now say this is what we have to deliver, this-is how much, how big, how long, whatever the physical constraints the properties are. And those can be agreed upfront and the benefit there is now your standardisation becomes far more consistent.

You have information available that you’re be able to get to your supply chain and out of the supply chain. And I think that’s really the important part, it’s those little building blocks which we see as having a little bit of value and they actually have a lot more value that what we give credit.

GEORGE STEVENSON There’s a lot of people on this call, Pierre, who are looking after existing buildings. So, I know that you understand that, but I just want to build that bridge so that everybody understands that when we’re talking about BIM we’re not talking about 3D modelling, we’re actually talking about the information management. And what we want to do, particularly with this group, is that we want to make sure that people can understand how they can take O&M information, as-built drawings, schedules etc. And use the principles, not just the principles but the actual tools and processes that are defined in the BIM process to enable that. So, it’s really important to understand that we’re not looking at things from just a construction 3D modelling to asset management process.

MATT WILKIE The problem is when the RDSs have been wrong since day one, so they’ve never been verified. For example, say you’ve got 14 consultant rooms, it’s actually a cleaner’s cupboard, a gym, the expectation is if that RDS has been set out as that’s the expectation, we will have the consultant rooms because that’s what was originally there. There has been a breakdown from the beginning where things have been altered and it’s not been documented. So, it’s actually verifying who did what and when and who is responsible for those changes. Because who is going to pay at the end when we go to dilapidations etc and they suddenly go, oh, we want the consultant rooms, or in fact just give us the money, don’t worry about it. Because that’s where you get to with some of these when it goes commercial.

GEORGE STEVENSON Has anybody else had that type of experience? Where the room data sheets aren’t the right ones for the room that ends up?

KEVIN BAYLISS My experience of room data sheets, which goes across different sectors from schools, universities, residential and commercial buildings. A lot of them becomes…the design process, and part of that it becomes like compass, some people use Word documents and templates, other people use other stuff. You could use Rufus that links directly into models when people are doing design and they updated and so on. I think having that standard way of doing it and then having some way you can set a standard to is really important from day one.

Because otherwise you are just going to, the easier that is the easier it is further on in your asset management to then go this has been changed and this is what you’ve got. But if you were asking somebody at the end of a construction process to go through and say this is what was done and you update the same information so it’s accurate and it’s linked, rather than being not assigned to that space. Actually it’s not that space, it’s this space, so somebody have to go and do that exercise again, but it’s easier if it’s already in there in a system that’s standardised.

GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah, the only thing I’d say on that, I agree with you, Kevin, but what we need to do is concentrate on the taxonomy and naming, irrespective of which software application is being used. Because what we really need to do is make sure that at the simplest level the asset teams can keep things up-to-date. If I could just give you one practical example, I had a call this morning from a hospital where they’ve got a multi-billion pound grant to replace all of the windows. So, they’ve been going through an exercise this last year of replacing all of the windows. And the contractor that’s done the work has done a meticulous job in recording what they’ve actually done.

The problem is that the floor plans that the contractor has been referencing it to have got different room namings and space names than others. The point is now that they’ve got all of this information back and they know reckon that it’s going to take them a year to go through and be able to get them all synchronised. Because the master asset data base has got where they’ve got all of their asbestos and everything else, so they need everything referring back to the same IDs, which is a very simple thing, but it wasn’t done. And part of the reason for that, the asset teams understood it needed to be done, but when the procurement teams went out and procured the contracts they sent out the wrong information.

KEVIN BAYLISS I think that’s important that client EIR at the start saying look, actually, this is how we do our assets, this is how we need them named and this is how the ? 26mins 35secs need to reply, so when design teams do a bit of work on it they’ve got that extra filter all of the way through to asset. But if it’s connected digitally their more likely to have that being resolved than you are if people are just manually filing things in to sheets on a Word file, or something else.

GEORGE STEVENSON Yes, definitely.

PIERRE VENTER I think that one of the areas that is very ‘simple’, that’s data management. Effectively you’ve got two different sources and you decide which is the source. The actual application can be managed where you connect the dots and you get the results that you need to see. But I think Kevin, if it’s not in the EIR Exchange Information Requirements, and defined how you’re going to share this, that’s the most important part of the standardisation from day one. Where we all speak the same language in terms of the data, or we speak the same language in terms of construction, or in terms of what is an asset. And that way we’ve got one platform that everybody needs to buy into because that will ensure that we’ve got a standard, consistent compliant platform to work on.

CAROLYN FLYNN I liked what you touched on, what I’ve inherited, I’ve come in as an asset manager on a contract. This contract is a PFI and it’s exhausted its extensions and will be handed back to the client, or re-bidded, whatever, at the end of 2026. However, the contract has been running for over 20 years. The thing that I’m now dealing with is it’s in the health sector, so sometimes a consultant room becomes an examination room the next day and whatever and things get swapped around. So, it’s really interesting to touch on a room asset list…which I must admit I’ve never heard of before because literally what I’m doing is doing room by room.

First of all site drawings, is the site enabled? Is it what it was? Is it still what the drawing says? It’s updated now and they’re doing a whole asset capture. I just thought I would share where I’m coming from which is trying to capture and what’s the best way. I’ve got the 360 camera do download captures, where do I capture it? On the spreadsheet, and then updating the CAFM system, that’s the way I’m doing it.

GEORGE STEVENSON You’re contribution there was very helpful, that’s definitely something that I’d like to pick up on. I’ll explain a couple of things that we’ve got in mind there. Richard Dennis, you were saying earlier what you’re doing within AMY, does this resonate with you at all?

RICHARD DENNIS I have to admit that much of what you’re talking about is at a technical level which way exceeds my understanding of the sector. But having said that, what I’m particularly interested in is where the knowledge deficit is in the end user. And a lot of what you’re talking about resonates with me. In particular we’ve just been engaged in some detailed passive verification and conditioning work across a fairly extensive PFI portfolio and the mismatch between expectations and reality was quite striking.

So, while a lot of the jargon that’s being used is not that familiar to me, I absolutely recognise the overall picture which is that which the contract says and that they’re all said when it was set up 20-odd years ago, and that which is actually on the ground now can very often bear little resemblance to each other. So for me, in terms of background understanding of the wider context it’s very valuable.

GEORGE STEVENSON That’s a very important point, Richard. One of the approaches, I’m using a term taxonomy that I was taught a year ago, so I didn’t know what taxonomy meant. And we talk about classifications and things like that. These are things that from an information management point of view which once you understand what they are, basically taxonomy is coding and naming, and therefore it means that we can end up with some way of comparing apples with apples. So, if for example you’re doing a lifecycle assessment, then being able to look across an individual building and a look at the spaces that are in that building, and what assets they contain.

And what systems they are part of, and what are those systems doing in terms of how do they need to perform to provide the right environmental conditions for supporting certain activities, that’s where all of this technical stuff comes in. But it comes back into something which then, from a management point of view, you can probably look more strategically.

WILLIAM BORTHEN In terms of space referencing, there needs to be consistency physically in the space and within the data. So whether that’s the CAFM system or the drawings or the BIM model or room data sheets, there needs to be a label on the door that tells you what the references for that space are. So that people can allocate maintenance tasks to it and everyone going in there understands which space is which. So, where there is no physical reference there is always going to be a challenge, and the process of doing that will allow you to ensure consistency between the data and the physical entity. And then once you’ve got good spatial data then you can start collecting assets and putting them within those spaces so that everyone understands the physical location of all of your assets.

GEORGE STEVENSON I think there needs to be a recognition that these space names are going to change and therefore what we need to do is make sure that that’s recognised. Because even between design and construction and then operations, often the space names will change. But you don/t want to change them actually in your master database because there’s lots of things that are referencing that original information set. So, that’s just a matter of holding multiple references in the database for that space, so therefore you’ve got a number of different ways that you can address it. I think that’s an important thing. We’ve seen it even on a project itself, somebody has the bright idea, even during design and construction, of renaming all of the spaces because that suits the way that they’re operating.

WILLIAM BORTHEN Yeah, and there’s a difference between referencing space and the function of the space. So, you shouldn’t name the space Office 1, you should name it GF-01 or something and then assign a function to it.

JUSTIN GILLARD I work as an information manager and when people ask you what I do and you have to encapsulate your job in terms that people understand. What I tell people is that I take projects from the very inception at the beginning, right through the design phase and to the point of delivering models and information for operations. So, I say that I go end to end. What I put n the comments there, having listened to some of the feedback and some of the failings in the system, is from my point of view as an information manager, if an information manager is involved from the beginning, the inception, writing the BIM protocols, liaising with the landlord, building owner and operations team. Certainly trying to anticipate what happens, but crucially having a set of robust protocols that tell everybody involved in the design process what they should do and how they should be doing it.

But more importantly here, the policing part of it, having regular meetings and looking at what’s been produced and developed for delivery and handover. When that is done, obviously this is blue sky ideals, when that is done certainly from the inception to information handover, but maybe through construction and operations phases changes to the building. I know this is something that George is very aware of which is how do you keep these records updated, but from my perspective because of the way that I operate, the information that I would deal with at this stage in my job as being an information manager, after being a senior BIM consultant, is that I prevent all of the things that you’re talking about ever happening by constantly making people do it.

And there’s a constant language, dialogue, taxonomy and everything through everything that one does because there is one person and one role that’s overseeing that, and that’s the information manager. That’s my point, George, because we’ve had conversations before where I said I don’t experience some of these issues because I’m on it. And that’s all I wanted to add, a potential way of addressing some of the failings is by having an overviewing party, an information manager that says look, this is how it’s going from end to end. These are the things that you should be doing and if you don’t understand I’ll explain it to you. And I can tell you that half of the time I end up doing people’s jobs for them, just to make sure that these things get done properly, that’s part of being an information manager it seems. Some people just don’t have the BIM competency to do it. It's totally understandable, I put down work and pick it up sometimes and I don’t even understand my own work sometimes.

I have to go back and research all of the steps and realise why my notes and my recording of everything is what it is, even for me. So, I totally appreciate people that are picking up and dropping these processes. They’re complicated, there’s lots of steps and procedures.

PIERRE VENTER I think for everybody…to understand in terms of the ISO standards etc we talk about a container. I’ve worked in the Middle East with a company that did malls and one of those things that comes out of that, and I think in terms of Justin’s message, change is a fact. And in malls in particular the demise lines, the rooms get aggregated they get split depending on the business case. And the management of that container, it’s very simple, if you just tag it once and you then wind it back with all of the developments that have taken place previously, it becomes manageable because you’ve got documents that reflect it. I think like Justin just raised, one of the things is that we have platforms applications, let’s call them file servers or containers like CDEs and those terms.

Basically what it does is it gives us an ability to have multiple versions of the development, not just revisions but versions, which means you can open and unpick. And that’s the sanity about the information management is that it gives you that where you can aggregate that past information. Yes, it costs money, yes it costs time, but one thing is you get the dots being joined which I think is really important in this thing.

GEORGE STEVENSON Yogesh, can you tell us a little bit about what you do?

YOGESH LUHAR Lexica is a sort of healthcare life science consultancy, we specialise in project management, healthcare strategy and planning, and some interesting points that I’ve noted here. We’re also involved in PFI expiry at the moment and common issues that we have, and certainly in relation to the information mapping and logging very clear and concise information is that we invariably find that in a lot of cases that room names have been changed, room uses have been changed. And the implications of those room changes haven’t been considered effectively. To give you an example we find that where we have small spaces, examination rooms, they put cleaner’s cupboards in there without logging any information.

Now, the implications of that is that it clearly breaches fire regulations. The implications of those spaces haven’t been considered, so it frightens me that we’re saying we’re not logging this information accurately, The impact of those is going to be quite severe. And we’ve now been brought in with a couple of the NHS Trusts where they’ve asked us to actually have a look at the variations and assess the impact of those in terms of statutory requirements. And in certain cases it’s going to cost a Trust hundreds of thousands, and in a couple of cases millions, to just put the information right. So credible and value information, what you guys have been talking about, is absolutely paramount as far as we're concerned.

GEORGE STEVENSON Yes, absolutely, one of the things that interesting, I’m going to ask a quick question: How many people are aware of what ADB is in healthcare? So, most people know what ADB is. I think it’s just worth explaining what ADB is. ADB was developed by the NHS back in the early 90’s and it was a revolutionary way of briefing. It worked on the basis of bringing together the healthcare standards, health building notes and technical memoranda which are both specifications that designers use to create something that responds to activities. So in other words, what they basically said was if we’re going to have a consulting room or an operating theatre, what conditions do we need to be able to achieve in that space?

In terms of lighting, acoustics, ventilation, heating. What type of finishes need to be in there for floors, ceilings, walls. And what type of equipment is needed in those spaces. And they had subject matter experts and they produced a fantastic tool called ADB, the Activity Data Base. And it was then licensed to designers and healthcare planners and it was a shortcut for them to be able to say if we’re going to have maybe a 6-bed ward, this is what we actually need to have in place to do that. So, it was a briefing tool. The briefing tool was then used by the designers to create the design solution and in many cases the ADB documents were tied into the contract to become the basis on which the deliverables had to be met.

Now, what then happened, as with all things, the NHS stopped finding it. And it then became, back in the early 2000’s, if you like something for the market to carry on developing. A real shame, but the principles behind it are very sound and that’s something that I think is worth us collectively looking at .So, if anybody is interested in looking at how we could take the existing ABD information and make it more useable, I’d like yo to put ADB in the chat…and we can set up a little separate workstream to look at ADB. I think there’s great opportunities with it because for things like lifecycle planning and things like that are important. But also to be able to look at that from a point of view of building safety.

HAMZA PRESSWALA I wanted to know a little bit more about the ADB.I used to work for Canon Design, we used to do healthcare designing quite a lot. And we used to have a similar structure, but it was more of a company based database. I just wanted to know if there are major companies who are dealing with healthcare and, for example, somebody is dealing with commercial projects quite a lot. And the big companies, if they can get together and make a database for each and every aspect. For example, for housing you could have all of the basic things set up. And so would that be a relevant thing in the industry?

GEORGE STEVENSON Yes, most definitely. I was involved from probably 2000 in ADB and I thought it was fantastic, and we then took it and applied it to schools. So, a lot of the priority schools building programme in England actually used ADB. In Scotland they’ve used a very similar version, it wasn’t ADB because we tailored it suit the way that schools operate, but it’s exactly the same principles. What essentially you’ve got is an activity-based way of designing out facilities. So, i can pick up on that separately with you, or we’ll set up a little meeting on that.

PHILIP HANNABUSS Talking about the PFI schools initiative, I remember working on that…up in Birmingham. And one of the interesting things that they had, and I wondered if it’s still used, is they used the BIM model itself to understand how a room could be used. And the designed it in a particular way, for a simplistic example let’s take a school lesson room. If they had a number of computers in that room and they wanted a desk-based front facing room they had to make sure that there was power points in the bottom of the floor and the cables and all of that kind of stuff, health & safety had to be managed and so on. If they then wanted a perimeter-based training room they had to move all of the desks out and make sure there was enough plug sockets and that on the outside of the room, basic, obvious stuff. Is that principle within the BM model still being utilised?

Because somebody earlier was talking about how hospital rooms are used over and over again in different guises. I’m just wondering, is that still something that people are doing is using the BIM model to understand how a room can be used? Where the connection points are. Particularly for hospitals you’ve got different elements to it, would that information also feed into the room data sheets that we were talking about earlier? Or is it just something that’s fallen by the wayside?

GEORGE STEVENSON It’s a really good question and yes, there’s quite a lot of work that’s gone on in that area. Individual firms and practices have got their own families and libraries that they use and they do use it for that purpose. Also, Procure 23 (P 23) they’ve developed some standard objects and things like that, I’ve not looked at them for a couple of years. So you’re quite right, Phil, that that’s the case. But the point is, and it’s a really important point, if you’re doing it in a 3D BIM model then you’re only then really relating it to things that can be modelled.

PHILIP HANNABUSS This is where my head was going because I was thinking we were talking on one of the other forums about do asset managers still use, or need to use, the BIM model. And there is a good example where when you’re planning room strategy and room usage strategies you can actually use that BIM model to say whether that room can be used in that function. Which obviously saves you having to physically move desks and that kind of stuff. All of that work is being done through the BIM model, and it comes back to that question, is that a brilliant use of the BIM model for asset owners to say how you can use a room? Which in modern times should be how you look at that room utilisation strategy.

PIERRE VENTER It’s very easy, when you have a model you can do anything, you’re connecting data, you’re connecting documents and you’re connecting the spatial information. The question about the ownership of the model as we go through the lifetime of the building, that’s just one of those things. But I think what’s really important is that it’s in a way, you may have heard the term digital twin. But essentially it’s giving you a planning too, which says what is required and you’ve got the ability to check if the resources are available or not. And that’s a quality check which you can immediately reroute to the right department, the right discipline or provision of that.

And if we’re building buildings cradle to grave, if we’re doing that as a philosophy, straight away plugging new connections in, almost like a slave cable connecting into something, suddenly becomes quite realistic and not difficult to do. And I think that adaptation is a good philosophy to start following.

GEORGE STEVENSON I think part of the thing that needs to be recognised is that BIM models are created for a purpose. And Phil, it depends really on how the BIM model has been defined at the outset. In most cases, BIM models are created to optimise the design and construction process. So therefore a lot of the things that you would probably want to do in terms of your service planning, for example, may not have been included in the way that BIM models have been created. So, for example, one of the key things with healthcare planning, which is broadly what you’re talking about there, is the groupings and adjacencies of spaces to perform functions. And also the relationship between systems and elements that are actually in the buildings. Because those maybe not things that are physically modelled, but they are logically modelled. And that’s where somebody like Yogesh, who is a healthcare planner, would probably be looking at things from a relationship perspective which may not be the way that the models have been created.

As Pierre’s saying, you can use the models for all sorts of different things, but you need to recognise there is a degree of inflexibility in terms of how you can do that, depending on how the models have been created.

HAMZA PRESSWALA I just wanted to get everybody’s notice that maybe we can implement these central model information into the retrofit industry as well. That could be a major way through because a lot of these calculations and energy analysis that needs to be taken place can be just streamlined and you can have like a central guidance system to anybody who's new in the industry…to get a lot of work going on from the start. Because it takes a lot of time for everybody to get the information set in a model when we start a new project. So, if we have templates which can upgrade and implement these strategies well into a model from the start, that could save a lot of time and it could increase efficiency in the organisation as well.

KEVIN BAYLISS Just mentioning the usage of models, one we would love is the construction design teams all know how to use models. And then you go into the maintenance piece and everybody else knows how to use models and information, and it’s all standardised and that’s what we would love. The reality is when you get to the maintenance piece, and even in the construction piece with subcontractors and so on, they’re not going to have that skill element to do working in the model and BIM in the same way. Maybe an architect might do, or another discipline might do. What I typically see is the fact that it’s about the information,

So, it’s about what you take from the model and utilising that, and if there’s an asset information model it’s then taking it from that into the systems in a very simple way where it will then talk to that model that’s a constant record moving forward. But those elements are usable enough for you to put things in and anyone that don’t need to know, actually i need to know how to do that in a model and add that information in. Actually there’s some simpler ways of doing it, of adding that information.

YOGESH LUHAR What we’re talking here at the moment is gathering information at quite a microlevel, we’re talking about the technicalities here. But I think the industry as a whole, and certainly in terms of information gathering which is absolutely paramount, is the way that the healthcare industry is changing. And I think that is quite an important way of looking at it because you previously talked about the activity databases and I remember working with your regional health authorities. And they started implementing the ADB sheets and the room data sheets and this is the way that the industry was.

The industry is changing, the health sector there are other priorities that they need to be looking at in terms of increasing productivity, looking at perhaps an emphasis on preventative healthcare. Looking at the way that utilise sedition of our assets is paramount. There is big workstreams coming online in terms of pushing services out of the acute setting into the community setting, so at least there is a lot more care being provided in the community. Added to that, that what they are now looking for is flexibility in the use of spaces and I think a lot of the comments that we have the technology to be able to capture this information so that it is flexible.

But if we needed to change the rooms and look at sort of clinical adjacencies then we can actually work and develop models that can actually assist in that. And I think really we just need to step back a little bit and say how do we need to capture information to take into account the more sort of dynamic way that we’re looking to deliver healthcare. Now, with these new integrative care boards, you not only have to be looking at the healthcare side of things, but also looking at the social care side of things as well. And where there was quite distinct lines between health and social care, I think what we’re now trying to do is to bring these two key elements of health and social care into one so that it’s a seamless process.

And I think those are the sort of things that we need to actually have thoughts around and see how we can capture the information which best delivers. And especially it’s going to be quite important now, with the new NHP hospitals coming online as well, I know that a number of consultants have been working. But that’s actually quite a useful starting point as well to say that gathering information and developing information gathering at a very early stage in the new NHP programme is going to be paramount as well. So,I think we need to perhaps step back a little bit and give it really good thought in terms or capturing information and recording information.

GEORGE STEVENSON I entirely agree with what you’re saying and I’ve personally been involved in a lot of the integrated care discussions for 20 years. There’s been lots of different transforming community services and all sorts of things like that. But what I think we should be doing is looking at this from a point of view of what we can do. This working group is there to be able to tap into the workstreams. So, what we’ve got with the workstreams is people working away at coming up with better ways of capturing asset information, making things interoperable. Making sure that we’re capturing, for example, I’m quite surprised that we’ve not had people talk about the poor quality of O&M information and documentation and trying to find things, because that’s a common problem across the sector.

So, I absolutely agree with you, we need to look at things from a strategic perspective, but to get the plumbing right I think we need the granularity which then allows us to filter things and present things in a simpler way for a particular purpose. So, part of what I’m trying to get from this is to really understand what the business problems are that people are experiencing, so that we can then filter out what’s needed and collect the right information.

PIERRE VENTER I think two things, one of them is we’re talking about buildings, we’re also talking about the greater neighbourhood, the greater context. Now, what they’ve done in Dubai is they’ve put in a mandate recently and that covers everything from planning to operations throughout the lifetime. And that’s looking at the urban context, so life safety, fire, medical care, urban planning etc, it’s all covered in that so there’s a big overall umbrella. I think the other side that’s really important about all of this data, and the question about O&Ms is just a contribution on that right now, is that from the day that we start designing we’ve already decided on what an object is required, Later, as it goes through the lifetime of the design, we end up with a product provided by the contractor.

And this means that we can actually glue the dots together. I have a door, it becomes a door of a specific manufacturer and later on it becomes something that then becomes managed. And the documentation from the design informs the O&M because that’s the product that’s been decided, we’ve then got a comparative. All of these things is basically saying that we have digital transformation taking place where we have data that informs the next step down, right the way through until we end up in the actual operational side. And then the difference of having hard copy O&Ms versus the digital on a platform. And that’s a really important point that it’s available on demand and that’s critical to every single thing from a performance point of view. Particularly, as an example, is that it’s so dynamic by having a digital means somebody can walk out and with their phone get the information. So, basically those are some principles that we need to consider as part of the guidelines.

GEORGE STEVENSON Matt, can you pull it back on to PFI because I think a lot of what we’ve been talking about here is absolutely relevant, but we need to make this very much a PFI focus.

MATT WILKIE What Pierre was just saying is an important bit around the information as it changes over time, but what I find generally is that people have not maintained even the HTM requirements. So, the RDSs often specify what the requirements are for a sink, a tap, a TMV, but as Carolyn said she can’t locate the RDSs. Well, the building will have them, it’s not Carolyn’s fault that they’ve gone wherever, but that’s a prime example of a PFI problem. The information is probably sat on a folder, sat whenever it was built, and somebody has got it in an office and maybe in a plant room somewhere, the information has never gone digital. So, that’s where a lot of these problems start and I find it in nearly every single contract. That transition has never occurred.

So, when you put contractors in the SPV, the FM provider will just go and fix it. And then you’ve lost what was the requirement? What were they originally asked for? Because the contractor doesn’t know what the specification was because they were never given it, so they may not understand the full requirements of what the requirements are for that piece of equipment. That’s why you’ll find sometimes say TMVs, but not TMV 3s because they’ve just got a TMV. So, you get these things where people just go and go oh, I was told to get a TMV so I got a TMV, wrong types of taps. And these are small things, but when you start getting to, for example, water systems that are supposed to be separated to avoid contamination, they’ve not fully understood what that system is.

So, why that system exists, and then they end up getting blended with the rest of the system, for some bizarre reason. So, i think there’s a lot of things hidden away on PFI and the documentation trail is a good one because if it’s not followed from day one, by the time it gets to the end it’s completely changed shape. But there’s no transitional knowledge either to say we’ve made a business decision because we haven’t got that information, none of that exists. It’s just hang on, why is that over there? Who put that there?

GEORGE Absolutely, to pick up on what you’re saying, TMVs. I know of an FM contractor who ended up I think it was one and a half million, they were prosecuted and fined for a thermostatic mixing valve (TMV).It scolded a surgeon, and when they actually tracked back on the maintenance, first of all they hadn’t got the maintenance records to show that it had been inspected and maintained properly. But they then discovered it was actually a TMV that was inherited from the original Trust. So, although it was a PFI it was one that was inherited. Now, I don’t think that obviated any liability from the FM’s point of view, but they didn’t realise that was the case, and it should have been replaced, according to the lifecycle, probably 7 or 8 years before.

So, I think the critical thing here is having the right asset information about what’s in the building. And in many cases, although there’s a perception that’s going to be in the ADB information, it almost certainly won’t because the ADB is there to determine how that space has got to perform, rather than what the products were that were installed. So, part of the way, if i could refer anybody that’s interested to what we’ve been doing in the digital asset capture group. That’s a way of creating baseline information for existing buildings, about the spaces.

MATT WILKIE To follow on from that, the thing is if you’re working on a containerised design in the sense of a consulting room has X and that’s the expectation of X, it’s much easier to manage the legislation because you’re looking at consulting rooms, consulting rooms, consulting rooms. They should all be meeting the same standards, so when you have a change you should be able to ripple it through all of your portfolio quite quickly because that change is relevant to all of the estates. An easy example on that is flexible hoses, with the HTM requirements because they can hold bacteria and Legionella, they say you should replace them all. But does everybody know where they all are? What’s the requirements? What’s installed originally?

If you have a structured framework of building types, room types etc, it’s much easier to work out where your weak spots are as well as the areas you’re going to be 100% on the ball with. So, I think that’s an important bit and I just want to add on that’s important with the impact group that’s coming up. I think the bad information as well as good information out of the PFI group would actually fit in with that quite well. Because the other bit is it’s easier to go and send somebody to look at something that keep the system up-to-date. But I’d throw in KPIs on that as well because as soon as send somebody, two hours to get there, look at it and go oh, yeah, it’s broken, I haven’t got one of those.

It’s instantly you’re outside of your KPIs, so you’re going to get fines. So, the reality is there is a business case of actually going through these sort of things for the impact group to show there’s a risk. The other one is, like you say, somebody getting sued £1.5 million, there’s a risk. So, the business cases start to write themselves because in these realms there’s so many different cases of where it’s done right and done wrong, that you can actually pull it apart and go OK, this is a justification that we need to go into a more structured format. If we’re going a CAFM system but not going down the route of 3D modelling for costs, we need a standardised approach to what that information is in the CAFM.

What does that container, that room, have? And what should it have? So that you start standardising everything so it’s much easier to manage and much easier to see.
Because when you’ve got hundreds and hundreds of rooms, it’s very easy to lose track of everything.

GEORGE STEVENSON I’d just like to add to what you were saying, Matt, and that is that there’s a lot that can be done with using more standardised data sets for space types and solutions and systems and the like. And that’s an area that I’d like us to explore because I think that that would be a big step forward for us to produce some suggested outputs. The people that are on this, most of it has been talked about, as far as healthcare is concerned, which isn’t surprising because I think that’s where some of the most challenging areas are. But also I think somebody was saying that they’ve also been working on education projects as well, so we can cover both of those. I’d like to just throw it back out to the audience, are there other things that people want to contribute?

PIERRE VENTER I think one of the important parts of making a business case out of the developments that we put together is things like healthcare, education, is important, one for lives, two for education. However, there is a commercial requirement for part of the motivation and while it is PFI something like a public facility, commercial, retail etc., has an important factor where you can start getting the motivation between the public building type and something that is commercial. Because you can actually see how you fund something and maybe translate that into a public funding.

GEORGE STEVENSON I agree with you, I think there’s a lot of the things that are common to all building types. Thermostatic Mixing Valves, for example, they’re all across the piece. So, in terms of what we’re covering here, are we of the view that this is a worthwhile thing for us to be looking at from a PFI and a PPP perspective? Or, would you say that the sector has got it all sorted and therefore there is nothing to be seen here? Would you like to carry on? This is the first meeting. Do we want to follow up? We’re certainly going to follow up with the ADB discussion and possibly the digital asset capture. I think the key thing is looking at this from a point of view of what can the workstreams provide us that you would find of value. A lot of you are involved in those anyway, but it’s a matter of having this PFI, that’s what Matt and I are trying to bring to the table.

RICHARD DENNIS From my perspective, as I said earlier, my detailed technical knowledge is limited and as a result I’ve listened to the SMEs on this call with mounting fascination. I was a soldier for many years and I thought we’d nailed the art of the TLA, you lot are streets ahead! But the one thing that nearly two years in the asset identification verification piece has told me, and looking at the projections coming down the track is that UK plc is woefully underprepared for the changes that are coming along. And anything that a group of professionals like this can do to provide some clarity for the end users and HMG has got to be applauded. So, from my limited perspective I would certainly suggest that there is a need for this.

KEVIN BAYLISS It is worth doing it because if there’s some specific elements. We’re doing a lot of different things, looking at capturing the golden thread and everything else. So, we can be doing all of these other things, it’ll also be understanding of how by doing this group you understand how could that filter into that and whether that molds it a little bit. So, I think it’s worth doing it, it’s just being very conscious that it’s not double counting those things. So, it’s just taking what we can from this group and then feeding to help the other stuff and feeding back.

GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah I see this group as being a client of the other workstreams.

MATT WILKIE From my perspective, I can see it where it can be expanded out of it as well, because at the moment we’re predominantly all from a technical background. So, we’re missing stakeholders and the people that make our lives difficult. So, having some of those engagements, even if it’s to bring in open ended discussion piece in the sense of the non-specific for contractual reasons. I thin having some sort of think-tank and group around solutions to problems, like the transition of a contract that’s failing and how you bring that back on board.

They’ll all slot in with the other information that we’ve got, it’s also transitioning that over a period of time because you may only have 5 years, 3 years to make that happen. So, it’s utilising the information coming out of the other groups and how that will fit into a PFI and how you can use it to correct the contracts. I think there’s some opportunity on that side.

GEORGE STEVENSON Agreed, I think what we need to do, if the people on the call think this is worth doing, if you’ve got contacts in SPVs or FM organisations that are managing PFIs, so effectively the clients, or indeed trusts or academies and people like that all of those, if we can get them engaged, if you could drop a contact by email or into the chat that you’re working for, that would be helpful. I hope you found it worthwhile and I'll come back to the people that have said that they're interested in exploring some of these areas that we can then put together maybe a bit of collaboration on that specifically.

CHAT

Chris Bicknell (External) 11:02 am

Good morning. I’ve had to come to Hospital appt with my mum. So will be listening more than contribution this time around. Chris

Chris Bicknell (External) 11:16 am

Define what BIM means to everyone? Not sure there is a fully aligned view?

Chris Bicknell (External) 11:24 am

Upfront absolutely - but we are now trying to retrofit this into 25 year old vague contexts. And contracts. RSS sheets - enforce the contract for update... by Chris Bicknell

Chris Bicknell (External) 11:26 am

RSS sheets - enforce the contract for updates! That worked!!!

Chris Bicknell (External) 11:26 am

RDS…

Chris Bicknell (External) 11:31 am

We need to drive for retrospective golden thread….

Matt Wilkie (Unverified) 11:35 am

There will be RDS for the locations on the healthcare site, along with usually a breakdown on the "Groups" of assets as it changes who owns and maintains them.

Matt Wilkie (Unverified) 11:36 am

Often also covers the relevant HTM's for the assets.

Justin Gillard (External) 11:38 am

Having a project Information Manager to implement and police the BIM protocols to all parties at all stages will prevent some of the issues raised here form happening.

Matt Wilkie (Unverified) 11:40 am

Part of that would require some change management monitoring. As its often Project Managers and Operational staff that don't understand the implications of change (often not notifying the changes as well).

Matt Wilkie (Unverified) 11:41 am

Differences between Spaces and Parent / Child is an important one.

William Borthen (External) 11:43 am

Could you explain further Matt Wilkie (Unverified)?

Matt Wilkie (Unverified) 11:46 am

William Borthen (Unverified) recommend it as another subject to discuss, for example a location may be a physical space. But its assets within it are they the child of the location? or for example is a smoke detector a child of the fire alarm system?

Pierre Venter (External) 11:56 am

Absolutely, its the opportunity of the Digital Twi n, asset type

Chris Bicknell (External) 11:57 am

Need alignment of CAPEX model data with FM ongoing. RDS sheets are good basis of filled in at outset and maintained.

Matt Wilkie (Unverified) 12:02 pm

common for group items being maintained / replaced FOC. That are outside of the scope of contract, yet clear in the RDS.

William Borthen (External) 12:06 pm

Bayliss, Kevin (Unverified)

I agree with your point, there is a low level of BIM capability in the operation phase (FM). It's cheaper and more achievable to send someone to go and have a look at the physical space, rather than analyse a model. Hopefully it will improve, but I dont expect it to be quick.

Chris Bicknell (External) 12:07 pm

This group is PFI?focus on specific need? Golden thread! Absolutely

Bayliss, Kevin (Unverified) 12:15 pm

Completely agree with Pierre, the Golden Thread is electronic information to be accessible by the right people with the right information at the right time, so has to be reviewed and updated throughout both design and asset maintenance. .

Flynn, Carolyn @ GWS EMEA (External) 12:24 pm

the other thing i have is when the SPV lease/rent out rooms and the tenant has to complete their own maintenance. They've then taken the rooms back and ask us to maintain but the assets haven't been captured or costed for properly.

Pierre Venter (External) 12:24 pm

There is a focus on PFI/ADB but this can translate to a connection with the other initiatives. Retain that PFI focus, is important.

Paul Womack (External) 12:26 pm

Not for me as it is on PFI but thank you. My view is - This type of meeting is valuable especially for the PFI Hospitals.

Matt Wilkie (Unverified) 12:26 pm

Flynn, Carolyn @ GWS EMEA 11-02-2025 12:24 pm

the other thing i have is when the SPV lease/rent out rooms and the tenant has to complete their own maintainace. They've then taken the rooms back and ask us to maitain but the assets haven't been captured or costed for properly.

There should be RDS for those locations, as the assets are normally in 4 groups. Those that are maintained + replaced, maintain only, tenant responsibility etc.

Brian McKenna (External) 12:43 pm

the "smoke detector" is a "component" of a "fire Alarm" "system" that is located in a Space, its is not a Child of the space merely located in the "Space". For example, the "Smoke Detector" could in theory be relocated to another "space"

Pierre Venter (External) 12:49 pm

Brian McKenna. It will be useful to have some images expanding the hierarchy of Objects, eg Spaces, Systems, Elements/Components and Assemblies. Covering the Containers of Data, documents for example Rooms/Spaces/Zones. I add an image of RDS and elements contained.

Room contains these elements, Windows, Doors, Furniture and have performance requirements for Walls, Floors, Ceilings. Occupancy and Adjacencies.