IMPACT WORKSTREAM MEETING 14-04-2025
RICHARD FREER …the actual costs. Now, I think that for a lot of people that we’re showing this to, they will understand but they won’t relate because it’s a completely different industry. So, I’m wondering if a task or an end put from this group might be to take an example of something that they can relate to and try and do the same thing. If I can just share my screen. This is a document we produced contributed to by hundreds of people over a period of about 2 years, this is the second edition. This is about fire doors. In this document, it goes into fire safety and god knows what else, even defining what a fire door is, how it’s constructed. What risks does a fire door set mitigate?
Now, if you reverse engineer that, those are the things that will cost money, lives, time. We’ve already got a list that this work done, of things to try and put some kind of cost on. That’s already been done, we don’t need to do that in this meeting. Likewise, what risks are susceptible? That’s not as relevant. But what I’m saying is this research and input has already been done. So, I’m wondering if it’s worth taking an asset such as a fire door or dampers or whatever, the research and the input has already been done. You might want to add from it or subtract from it, but it’s a baseline. That’s already been done to then try and put some figures around that to come up with something, or be in the process of coming up with something.
Similar for a fire door, which to some extent will be replicable and some extent won’t. You’ve got that for a fire door in the same way that you’ve got it for your Burger King. If that makes sense, because I think we’re kind of a quarter of the way there (or possibly a bit more) in that we’ve identified where the costs are going to come. There are others obviously, I appreciate that, but it’s just a start, that’s all that I’m thinking.
TERENCE HORSMAN I think that’s a really good suggestion, Richard. I definitely wanted to make the model a bit more practical this week if we can. Because I think we’ve got a really solid model now, if I share my screen. What we did in the last call, this is a bit of a recap, is swapped the order around so we have the hazards on the left hand side. As well as the business context and a description of the context in which this asset operates, and then the actual impact mapped out on the right hand side. Whether that’s financial or compliance risk, environmental etc. So, if we want to work through the model and look at the example of a fire door, Richard, I think that would be really good. I’d be relying on some of the experts on the call.
RICHARD FREER Absolutely, I’m just thinking obviously you’ve got your list of hazards, but some of what we’ve done already will drill down into that a bit more so it’s broken up a bit more, possibly.
GEORGE STEVENSON Terence, can I just add a couple of things. One is, I think one of the business impacts is prosecutions. And another is delays. The reason I’m saying this is that it’s become apparent in the recent conversations that we’ve been having that…in general terms the legal requirements for fire safety require people to provide reliable information about what’s gone into the buildings. And that’s something now that for HRBs, high-risk buildings, both the landlord or the responsible person and, this is the key thing, the contractor that’s providing the information, has to sign a legal declaration now to state that everything that should have been provided has been provided. And the responsible person has got to sign to say that they have enough to ensure that the building can be run safely.
Now, the reason I’m emphasising this is that you’re quite right, the whole point about this impact group is to be able to draw home to people what the implications are of not doing it. And I’ve been asking lawyers whether our interpretation of this is correct. And they are absolutely consistent on it that it’s now a legal requirement, if people sign that declaration and it’s later proven not to be true, they have committed a criminal act. So, they can be sent to prison. Now, I don’t think that the majority of the industry has even got those on their radar. So, the reason that I’m raising it, it just puts a lot more punch behind what we’re doing here.
TERENCE HORSMAN I absolutely agree.
GORDON PRINGLE I agree with George I don’t think that the industry has got any awareness of this whatsoever. And that’s either ignorance is bliss, or there’s just no communication of the facts.
RICHARD FREER I have to say, as a relative bystander in a way, I find it extraordinary. I have so many meetings with fairly senior people who are arguing the toss as to whether they have to sign. Now, we’ve got all of this regulations coming out and everybody is moaning that there is no clarity, like everybody. And here is one thing that is absolutely clear. In regulations that came out 2 years ago and people with responsibility don’t know that. I find that extraordinary.
GEORGE STEVENSON I guess the point that I’m making to an extent, Terence, is that if we can communicate that people have to do it for fire safety reasons, they should do it for everything.
TERENCE HORSMAN George, just a question. In the catering world, a lot of these prosecutions will be carried by HSE because of the nature of the risk involved. That sets businesses straight fairly quickly. How does prosecution happen in relation to this legislative framework that you’ve just described? Have we got any precedent that we could refer to? Especially on the finance side.
GEORGE STEVENSON Probably, I’m just digging away at the moment, to be honest. It’s the HSE again, though. But the other party with this are insurers because if your building is insured with an insurance company and you’ve done something that then has led to a criminal conviction, I believe that impacts on your insurance. The other thing, the responsible person is the corporate. So, it’s the organisation, they can be fined, is it 4% of worldwide turnover? Something like that, a staggering figure. But the individual that signs it is personally liable for 10 years. Which again, I don’t think anybody has got any idea about.
TERENCE HORSMAN They ought to prioritise this.
GORDON PRINGLE I know that David Fries who is the chief executive of BESA (Building Engineering Services Association). That’s all to do with heating, cooling, refrigeration, everything with systems working on a building. He’s a great one for saying you don’t know what you don’t know and the biggest thing in the contracting industry is that they don’t want to know. Because if it means more work or if it means more cost, they don’t want to know about it. So effectively what you’ve then got is the only way that you can communicate this change in industry is by specification, so the written word. But the problem is for the last 10 to 15 years, contractors will only fit and install what’s on a drawing.
So, if it’s not on the drawing, it doesn’t matter what you’ve written in the specification. If they’ve got to interpret it, they won’t interpret it, they’ll just give you what’s on the drawing. So, if you’ve got a valve on the drawing, if you’ve got any specific component on the drawing, you’ll maybe get that and you’ll maybe get some modicum of quality on it. But in the great scheme of things, if it’s a written intonation of what they should be doing, 9 times out of 10 they hardly even read this specification in great detail. Certainly the whole team doesn’t read the whole specification, somebody just reads it and tries to interpret it to the best of their abilities, depending on what function that they’re doing.
And if that’s the estimator, he’s trying to make sure that he reads it to the minimum requirement rather than the compliant legal requirement. It’s a strange process and the fact, I don’t even think that we’ve got a contractor in any of these group meetings. And if you do you’ll probably never hear them speak because they won’t wish to speak, because they don’t want to tell you what’s happening…
RICHARD FREER We have actually got quite a lot of contractors in the meeting and some of them certainly are very verbal, trust me.
GORDON PRINGLE I don’t know if you agree with that, but that’s what I see. And they’re all doing exactly the same thing, this is endemic. Or systemic and endemic, it’s absolutely prevalent within our trade.
GEORGE STEVENSON Definitely. So Gordon, are you saying that David Fries would be a supporter of the idea that the information needs to be clearer? Or are you saying that he’d prefer not?
GORDON PRINGLE I think BESA in general are on a massive push about the Building Safety Act and particularly George what you said. And everything that I say in every one of my presentations. For god’s sake, will you stop thinking about this as purely a fire safety situation. What you said earlier, George, was brilliant, it’s everything. If you know that the systems that go into a building that at the end of the day the residents are on the hook if this doesn’t work. And at the moment I’m just reviewing, because I’m in the specialist working groups for it, DESNZ are doing the heat network technical assurance scheme. Now, that is the regulation of heating and hot water and everybody that’s on heat networks.
It is absolutely going to change the way that the industry is making these systems. But more than that, there’s 14-15,000 in the UK at the moment. There’s a whole new guidance and regulation that’s coming to that area that I don’t think our industry is actually aware of, or is actually that bothered about. Because they think it’s an FM process and not a construction design issue process. And I definitely think that the FM industry have got no idea.
GEORGE STEVENSON Is it only for residential?
GORDON PRINGLE Yeah, but it’s residential that are on heat networks. So, if you’ve got pipes in the streets, most of the big developments in London, Leeds, Manchester and all of the rest of it, you can’t put boilers in these nowadays, you’ve got to put a big central boiler plant and pipe it in a sense of a commercial system. With an HIU or whatever, I don’t know if anybody has got an HIU in their premises.
But the issue is the historical failure rates on these systems is not negligible. And when they fail, you’ve got a Grenfell moment with regards to heating and hot water in your house. Now, if that starts to become a Grenfell moment, you’ll have politicians left, right and centre getting trouble by voters. And that’s why DESNZ are massively involved in this process. So, it’s regulating it and utilising it, as if you would utilise gas and electricity. That’s a seminal shift in how you basically construct things.
GEORGE STEVENSON Will those heat networks be providing heat to buildings that are maybe part of a complex, but aren’t residential? So, for example, shops.
GORDON PRINGLE Yeah, absolutely, commercial. So, at the moment I’m going to come into King’s Cross and right at the back of King’s Cross is the new Argent development in the whole King’s Cross basin, the new stuff at the back of that. Just about every one of those buildings are on some form of a heat network. There’s pipes underneath the ground that go to systems that are inside those buildings. And they go through plate heat exchangers and then that system on the secondary side does the heating and hot water….network, break it into data centres and you break it into hospitals that have got spare heat and everything.
There is a big macro plan that you’re going to connect these things together. And that’s the way that you’re going to reduce carbon, you’re going to massively reduce our carbon reduction. So, the whole process is pretty straightforward. But it’s complex, it requires planning, it requires significant infrastructure re-coordination. But you can kind of do it on the basis that that will happen eventually.
TERENCE HORSMAN I think that’s a very interesting point. Just coming back to Richard, how do we operationalise this model? How do we come up with practical examples that we can share with the wider community? Perhaps this is the answer. We might be able to work towards doing a POC on this heat network, Gordon, based on your experience. We can look at the fire door system based on the existing documentation BIM In Asset Management, Richard, that you suggested. I can tap into my experience in connection with MCFT to look at things like catering gas safety, for example. Gas safety certificates, this transcends to domestic housing as well.
And then we can create an interactive model or prototype which we can fit these particular examples into. And then share with the wider community to say hey, this is what we’ve come up with as a workstream. Here is an actual working model that you can start to try and use in practice. And we can get feedback on that and see if there is an appetite to expand that more. Richard, is that what you thought?
RICHARD FREER Yeah, i think that from experience is what I’d probably do is once you’ve got something to put forward, I’d probably look at holding a roundtable session. We’ve had those in the past with 200-330 people along, and filter down from there. As I said earlier on when we were chatting, we also get a lot of input, what you’re seeing in the meetings is the tip of the iceberg. W get a lot of input via email and chat from other members of our community. So yeah, absolutely. George, what do you think?
GEORGE STEVENSON I agree. The thing that I would also say is that the impact of, if we actually look at waking watches. I’d be interested in knowing how many waking watches there are in the country at the moment. That should be something we’d be able to get from people, even if it’s anecdotal. I am aware that one of our clients has got a waking watch and it’s costing them £30,000 a month. And there’s one in South London, I think it’s costing a quarter of a million. Do you know of any, Karen?
KAREN OSTLER I know we’ve touched on it on one of our previous group calls. Somebody discussed it and they did say half a million, I nearly fell off of my chair.
GEORGE STEVENSON And that’s because they can’t demonstrate that they know the building and that the building is safe. So, if you don’t have a viable smoke control system, for example, then they’ve either got to find new accommodation for all of the residents which is a massive job to do, or they’ve got to put measures in place. And the measures would be a waking watch which means that people have got to be there 24/7, 365 days a year, tracking it through. I was given another example of one where there was a care home and it was Interserve, and basically there was a fire that was caused by a smoke detector being replaced and it didn’t pick it up. And as a result of that the local fire brigade didn’t have confidence that Interserve were on top of the job. And they insisted on a waking watch. And that went for 11 months.
BARRY BASSNETT I just can’t get over this. Is there any national authority who is responsible for monitoring these?
GEORGE STEVENSON No.
BARRY BASSNETT Because I was going to say, going back to finding out, it would be really interesting to ask for a freedom of information act to one of the authorities to say do you know about this? And to see if they’ve got any figures. Because to my mind this is a national scandal that this is going on. Is there anybody we could point and ask the freedom of information act. Even if they can’t answer it, that would give us an idea.
GEORGE STEVENSON There are 42 fire authorities, each of which…
ANDREW PERRY I’ve sort of had experience of, not such a severe case, but it was a major health care project in Swindon, one of Carillion’s failed ones. And during a transition phase from one service provider to another, there was an audit. And there was no assurance in the smoke control and the fire alarm system, they couldn’t prove assurance. And I think we had to do a waking watch for a week until we could actually get the parts shipped in. And that cost a substantial amount for a 24 hour fire patrol for a major acute hospital, until we could actually get the bits fitted and basically recommission the system.
And that had been because it’s a PFI and the SPV had been asleep at the wheel. And I think that you’ll probably find that the case history is buried deep in contractual arrangements or contractual documentation. And we’ll never see the light of day because, quite frankly, it’s embarrassing for chief execs of NHS Trust in this case, to admit that they sat on top of basically a pile of crap.
RICHARD FREER Could I just say something adjacent, but I think is relevant. As far as I can see from the attendance, we haven’t got anybody on the call who is actually responsible, I know it’s not all about money, but a lot of it is. I don’t think we’ve got anybody on the call who is actually responsible for budgets and would actually have some responsibility for paying out these fines. That being the case, do we need some people on this call who are? Do we need to recruit some people somehow that actually have some financial responsibility?
BARRY BASSNETT I think the interesting people would be to get people who are working in the council or solicitors for these companies. Because they’re the ones who would be able to influence, I think. The company secretaries or whoever is responsible for the governance of these companies. Because I think that you’re absolutely right, this is a story that’s just waiting for the first prosecution and everybody is going to jump on it. But rather than wait for the first prosecution, people need to be aware that this is not just about economics. This effects the executives of the offices of the companies who are going to be there and that has a remarkable way of catalysing thoughts. It’s not just about the Excel spreadsheet, it’s about I could go to jail.
RICHARD FREER Yeah, I’m just thinking that we need some of those people onboard, don’t we? To talk with us in this meeting.
BARRY BASSNETT Definitely, and I think there’s lots of associations of construction managers and construction builders and people like that. And the contractors associations who maybe we should approach and see if they would like to sit and learn because if they don’t.
RICHARD FREER Why don’t I ask everybody to put into the chat, ideas of people that we should be engaging with and to join this group. Who actually have serious responsibility on these issues in terms of the impact of failure. George, what do you think?
GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah, I absolutely agree. (shares screen). So, just to explain what we’ve been doing. Over the last couple of weeks we’ve established a group called the Golden Thread Taskforce. And the reason we’ve done that is that the regulators, for actually quite logical reasons, they won’t tell the industry what they’ve got to do. So, the result of that is everybody in the industry is trying to interpret what they’ve got to do and they’re arriving at slightly different conclusions. So therefore, there is nothing really at an industry level that is adequately clear and explicit. And I think that’s in general terms. So, what we’ve done with the task group is we’ve identified all of the systems, in Column A there, that are part of fire safety.
Now, I accept that fact that this is only fire safety and what would be great for this, Gordon, is if you could add in there the things that are necessary for heating. And maybe Chris and Terence, you might be interested in this from the catering side of things as well because I imagine that the catering side of things will also impact on things. So, the point about this is the information about, for example in a kitchen, presumably you need to know where the locations are of the assets and what they are and whether it was installed properly. Am I right on that, Terence?
TERENCE HORSMAN Absolutely, yeah, and there could be specific risks associated with, specialist contractors needed for different asset types like you see with your smoke detectors here. For dealing with gas qualified equipment you need gas certified contractors, water, electricity. So, depending on the risk and the system in which that asset is installed, you might need different types of contractors.
GEOTGE STEVENSON The point that I’m making about that is I went to a conference. What I’ve been doing, I’ve been building on what Richard was saying earlier. I’ve been talking to various different associations. And Gordon, I wrote to the technical director of BESA (Building Environmental Services Association) to basically get their endorsement that the process that we’re following is consistent with their views as well. And the ASFP, the passive fire people, and also the Fire Industry Association, they have endorsed what we’re doing in here.
Now, if we can make that a standard that then comes out. I’ve also spoken with some of the leading manufacturers and what we’re doing is getting the manufacturers to agree that they will provide their product information in a way that can then map back to those items. So, if anybody knows of any other associations or groupings. On the catering side, is there any master organisation that we could talk to?
TERENCE HORSMAN Yeah, there are a number of associations we’re in contact with. FEA, CEDA, there are associations for manufacturers representation, users representation. You’ve got the FM people as well, it might make sense to get them involved.
GEORGE STEVENSON I’ve also been talking with CIBSE.
RICHARD FREER If you’ve got any ideas of the type of people that we need to join this group, do put them in the chat.
TERENCE HORSMAN I’m just thinking, Richard, I agree with your idea of operationalising the model. And what George has just shown is a really good output from the Golden Thread workstream. We could do a similar exercise of mapping that model into an Excel document, so that people can actually work with it (at the moment it’s abstract). And then we can approach these industry bodies and say hey look, this is what we’re working towards. It’s working in this legislative context that’s clearly evolving and there is a need here to satisfy these requirements. What are your thoughts and views? And I’m sure, George, as you’ve seen with your previous conversations, people will come back with a slightly different interpretation from their point of view, which I think it would be really good to take into account.
RICHARD FREER But it’s always good to go with something that they can comment on, first of all. And obviously the further down the road that is, the more in-depth we get the comments in the end.
TERENCE HORSMAN So, we can work towards that. (shares screen). Let me work up a quick Excel document. I’m just going to put them in and we can review this. And I think that we can work these out with actual examples, Richard.
RICHARD FREER So, you’ve got the schemata, the structure of what we need to be doing and how it needs to dovetail into something else. Just on a basic Excel, we can actually look at what each of those headings are going to contain.
TERENCE HORSMAN We should have a duplicate here, I think. Parts failing here, and parts separate as well. Condition, history, lifecycle. On the other side of the coin would be impacts. so here we’ve got risks of hazards. So Richard, based on this model, are you able to populate it from the fire door example?
RICHRD FREER Some of it, I think, yeah. It won’t give, obviously, the answers in terms of…well, probably some of them will. Obviously the financial side, no. In terms of compliance, I think yes, that would cover a lot of that.
GEORGE STEVENSON Well, the financial side, we may well be able to get it from people that are installing.
RICHARD FREER That’s true, but in terms of the cost impact of something not working for the business, or the organisation, we’re not going to have that, are we?
GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah, waking watch.
RICHARD FREER Right, but that’s one thing, there are a lot. But I think we can certainly make a start on that. We’ve certainly an amount of input to put into that. Operational, yes, we should be able to input significantly into that.
TERENCE HORSMAN Environment, carbon footprints. ESG, I think, as well. Probably not so much with fire safety systems, but definitely with regards to the gas installations, something to consider. The heating system.
RICHARD FREER Also, cost to reputational damage of failure or non compliance.
TERENCE HORSMAN So, if I distribute this and we give it a stab, as to fill it in for particular examples. And then perhaps in the next meeting come back and discuss those examples.
RICHARD FREER We’ll fill out as much as we can from what we’ve got n the existing stuff that we’ve got. Which should put make some good progress on that.
TERENCE HORSMAN How do the other workstreams do things like document sharing? Is there an environment for that?
GEORGE STEVENSON We don’t have that.
RICHARD FREER We found that we get a better response if we actually send it out direct.And wht we’ll do is once it’s ready to go in a workstream, we’ll put it on the agenda for that workstream and it will be done during the meeting. Rather than if you send stuff out willy nilly, you don’t get the response, it’s better to do it within the meeting if possible.
GEORGE STEVENSON I’ve just seen in the notes, Chris has emailed to say that he’s a bit frustrated that we’re going back to talk about building safety and fire safety and things like that. Whereas, what we’re trying to do is move it on from, we’re not trying to zero it in on fire safety at all. What we’re trying to do is look at what the business impact is. And we were trying to find something a bit beyond talking about Burger King. The Burger King example is great, but we’ve now used it on 4 or 5 meetings.
Now, are there any others that Chris might have that we could tap into? Also, has he got anybody else that isn’t coming from the building safety and fire safety perspective who could contribute to this? Because obviously the people that we’ve got in our community are looking at buildings. And FM and asset management, but FM and asset management of buildings. Now, certainly Barry has got a client that’s looking at this from a point of view of cleaning.
BARRY BASSNETT Yeah, it’s a pharmaceutical company who just want to see what their cleaning regime would be because they’re having to pay millions of pounds a year to clean surfaces that they don’t need to clean. They’re spending millions of pounds and they’re cleaning everything on a weekly basis, but they’re trying to figure out how they can cut that bill down, by focusing on where the dirty bits are in their building through air circulation. Where does detritus and bugs and horrible stuff congregate?
And by mapping that out then they can actually figure out what the interval of cleaning should be. And that has applications for all sorts of facilities management in hospitals and schools. Interesting things when it comes into, touch wood we’re never going to get another Covid, but it’s about flu transmission and cold transmission in work places. There’s all sorts of implications for it.
GEORGE STEVENSON and you need to know presumably, Barry, what the materials are that have been used to create that surface and therefore how that should be cleaned, and what it’s likely impact is.
BARRY BASSNETT Well, there’s fur things that they need to know. One is what they call the aggregation, how much is there. The other thing is what is there, so they know what is the right cleaning things to apply. And then they have to have a history and top document all of the health & safety and COSHH regulations about health and cleaning materials. But then they then have to figure out, what they’re doing is swabbing particular areas and just looking at the interval that they need to clean. So, there’s a whole slew of asset information and properties that they would like to know about. The same applies to…say in hospitals, and the big thing in hospitals is about cross-contamination and things like door knobs and touching things.
And they need to map them so they can see what they should be cleaning. And do they have to remove door handles? Because that’s the biggest cause for cross-contamination and all of the horrible things we get in hospital. So, it applies not just to pharmaceutical where it’s a governance issue to do with contamination of materials, but just public health & safety as well. So, there’s a whole slew of things, the problem with a lot of this stuff is they don’t know what questions they should be asking. But that’s the thing as someone said before, we don’t know what we don’t know. And the more that you can find out about the things you don’t know, the better and faster and better decisions you can make.
TERENCE HORSMAN That’s a really interesting use case, the cleaning one. How are they evaluating it at the moment?
BARRY BASSNETT What they’re doing is they’re just cleaning everything. But what they’re doing now is we’ve done a 3D model that they’re actually swabbing particular areas and looking at what sort of thing and the build-up over a period of time. Because there’s certain pockets where through air circulation things, like an eddy current in a river, can build up very quickly. So, what they’re saying is we need to clean those once a week, or once every day. But other surfaces we don’t need to because there is no contamination. But at the moment they’re spending millions cleaning every single surface and they feel they may not to. Or they may need to concentrate and clean something on a daily basis, or even an hourly basis, they don’t know.
RICHARD FREER Yeah, the reason that I went back to fire safety was purely because we’d done so much work on it already. That it made sense to get a good jump start to use something that was already in existence, rather than starting from scratch. Because I know how long it took us to get that information. You don’t want to be doing that, Terence, certainly not as a first step.
GEORGE STEVENSON And the point is, if there is then a methodology which basically says what we’re doing is we’re recording the information about the building, the spaces in the building. The systems that are supporting those spaces. The assets that are in there etc. If we’ve got a methodology for working that, that has to be there because it’s now a legal requirement, then we can apply it to a much wider set of asset types and systems and circumstances. I agree, I think that makes a lot of sense.
TERENCE HORSMAN Yeah, I don’t want to reinvent the wheel if there is no need. I see the sense in the approach. We can widen it later.
GEORGE STEVENSON And presumably from the things that Gordon was talking about, if the heating system fails in a restaurant, you’ve got a problem. Possibly a bigger problem than the ice cream machine not working.
TERENCE HORSMAN It depends on the climate, I suppose.
GEORGE STEVENSON Well, air conditioning.
GORDON PRINGLE If it's air conditioning, you've got a problem. There is a comfort condition within that space that you need to maintain, or you send your staff home. There’s a cost, but it’s an unforeseen cost until it happens. But they’re the worst costs, from an investment point of view. That’s why when we’re speaking to people like Savills and GLL, they are recognising the serius risks in their investment management of buildings. And some of these things are some of the topics that we’ve been discussing. And going back to Richard’s comment, it’s not a criticism that we focus on fire safety. But by doing so and constantly talking about fire safety, you fan the flames of the construction industry just putting it in a box and deciding because it’s best for them…carbon reduction plan.
TERENCE HORSMAN Richard, you made a point on demand.
RICHARD FREER Gordon was saying about different risks and George often brings up the mould issue. Which goes largely ignored, but it is a pretty huge issue. As somebody once said, the biggest risk is the one that you don’t recognise as a risk.
TERENCE HORSMAN Yeah, absolutely. Going back a few years just looking at the pandemic, I think we all have business continuity plans and business continuity meetings. And then there is a topic on there about pandemics and at least in ours we sort of glanced over it and thought what’s the risk of that happening? And then it happens, right. But it’s all about risk severity and understanding that. So, I think we’ve got a first version here mapped out. We have the model cleaned up and now here as a template in Excel. The next step from my point of view would be to create a practical example of this. So, I’m happy to do that based on my experience, just on the catering side, I can start to map this out. But I can distribute this to all on the call, we can see if we can map this for something like a fire, for example, as well. I do think that it has value and probably resonates with the attendance of the group. And then we can perhaps share this in the next call as an actual example.
GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah, I know that it’s complicated, but maybe an alternative asset to a fire door might be a smoke control system because there’s more component parts to that. And I imagine that that would be relevant to catering as well.
MODUPE SOBOWALE I wanted to say what you said is good as a mitigation to the risk.
GEORGE STEVENSON Is that something you'd be willing to help look at?
MODUPE SOBOWALE Yes, I can, I will try my best. I'm self-employed, but I'm doing my research at the moment.
TERENCE HORSMAN And just to throw something else in the mix, if we can look at the central heating systems that George was talking about, I think that would be a great example as well. And then we've got then we've got three asset systems to evaluate to see if the model works or not. And we can go out to industry and see what the appetite is like. But I’m conscious that I’m signing Gordon up for something while he’s in an area of low reception.
GORDON PRINGLE Yeah, as a product distributor and supplier into that small section, the issue that you’ve got on some of these case studies, because we’re trying to get case studies to tell some controversial stories. But Richard mentioned it earlier on and many have mentioned it before, the problem is you can’t get clearance by the lawyers. None of them will allow you on the PFI models, none of them will allow you to tell a story about any of their systems that are maybe having some issues. And they know it’s a wider issue than one, they completely close it down. And in actual fat, much of the contracting industry, they get nervous that they think it’s their own problem, they think that they’re just the only ones having it.
But they’re all having it, they’re all doing the same thing because they’re all the same guys. These guys move around, the project managers are the same guys. And it’s exactly David Fries’ comment about you don’t know what you don’t know. But you can take the horse to water, but it won’t necessarily drink if it doesn’t like what it’s drinking. Sorry, I’m getting to a stage in life where I’m fed up trying to talk about the niceties and the political correctness of how we should speak, we just need to say what we see.
TERENCE HORSMAN Yeah, fair point. So, i’ve shared that Excel document in the chat. Thanks everyone for their contributions.
CHAT
Gordon Pringle (External) 01:53 pm
The risk of pipework and frequent component failure within closed sealed system such as Heating or Cooling systems can be mitigated with early online continuous cost effective monitoring and I'll share a link now should that help from CIBSE Technical Symposium of 2021. Let me know if you wish this URL?
Andrew Perry (External) 01:55 pm
Loss of management time is also a considerable risk factor - consider resource overhead if it goes to HSE Prosecution and Interviews Under Caution
Adey Badmos (External) 01:55 pm
Section 38? Regulation 38, rather
Gordon Pringle (External) 02:10 pm
Chris Craggs (External) 02:14 pm
I know fire is a major pre-occupation - including Heathrow sub-stations - but it's only one aspect of this Impact Stream - how can we step back and consider the topic in the broadest sense? occupiers, FMs rather than construction?
Gordon Pringle (External) 02:19 pm
The most recent case study of Heat Network Strategy to enhance carbon reduction in the UK as Heat / Hot Water accounts for 40% of our Carbon. 2% UK Heat presently delivered via Network with Government Strategy goal to achieve 20% by 2030
DESNZ may be another George worth an approach as they are driving this HNTAS process to achieve better outcomes. What cost reputational damage of failure or non compliance
BESA will also be great from the IAQ management area and mould which is very topical presently
Proactive Maintenance and with CAFM and CMMS IoT coming into the fore we find the Good, Bad & Ugly and triage accordingly.