AS-BUILT USING DIGITAL ASSET CAPTURE SPECIAL WORKSHOP MEETING 01-08-2025
GEORGE STEVENSON There's quite a lot we can cover separately, Patrick, but essentially we've got a community of people who are focused at asset management. So we've been doing a lot of work on trying to make sure that people have got a coordinated view of what asset management's needed. So, I'll come on to that and explain that with you separately. But for this meeting, what we're looking at is how we can use 360 photography to actually address the fact that BIM models, for example, are very seldom actually completed. So, what we’re doing here is making it so that we can take a BIM model.
Here, for example, this is another university where the model was created, but our customer here was the asset management team which was Sodexo. They’re doing the hard FM on this. They might get a model, but the data itself isn’t properly coordinated. So what we’ve done, we’ve built APIs or connections into Revit so that the information about a pump or a chiller or whatever is actually held in a database, not in the model itself. If the data is in the model, great, but we use a data connector to make that connection. So therefore the information about the products are contained in a product library which we make freely available.
So, the product library holds the information about the manufactured items. And the unique thing that we’re doing, and this is the point about using 360s as part of the as-built, is that we can add a 360 photo. The FMs for example, before handover they can go and take 360 photos and that’s now standard practice within Sodexo. So, they take a 360 photo and that connector there back to that air handling unit with the proper coding, has actually come through from the database. So this data here is all coming from a combination of what was in the BIM model and also what’s coming through from the manufacturer.
But the important thing here is that we’re able to tag the 360 photo with what you can see. So, this means that there’s a lot of things that would never get modelled, but that you need as an asset manager that we’re connecting in. So it means that you can literally go and see something that’s there and then simply connect it in. And then what we’re then doing is that can be used to verify what’s been handed over. So, in this case, we’ve got a schedule of all of he equipment, both FF&E and maintained equipment, that’s in a space. Including who the manufacturer is, we’ve got it tied back to Uniclass and NRM and all of those sorts of things.
But from a simple point of view what we’re doing is making it so that you can then interact with the 360 photo. And you can say, for example, I’m checking to make sure that the speakers that I was expecting was going to be installed. I can go to the database and say I can see a photo, there’s a thing in there and you can see that it’s gone green. So that’s auditing what’s being handed over. And one of the big challenges that we’ve got at the moment is that there’s difference in terminology. There’s as-built, nobody wants to tell you something is as-built now apparently, so they’re using the term as-constructed. Which that’s the same thing really. Also then final construction, that’s moving away from something that’s more evidence based.
And we’re often finding people are now saying for construction, I think that’s unacceptable. So what we want to be doing as asset managers is push back and say no, we certainly want at least as-constructed. Now, the fact that that may be difficult for certain parties to provide, like architects for example, because at the end of the day they’re not responsible for especially if they’ve not been commissioned to do a final pass. But we need to recognise that that’s the case. And what we’ve tried to do is focus in on certain key things. So, for example, the fire & emergency file requires you to identify where things are and the location of fire doors, closers, emergency lighting etc. And that’s now a legal requirement.
People should, not just on a new build but on additional works that they’re carrying out, even maintenance work, the person that’s actually carried out the work needs to pass the information to the responsible person. And I don’t know who that would be within UCL, it may be you. Somebody has got to take responsibility for whether the information that was handed over actually contains everything that they need. And also the contractor has got to declare that they’re provided it. There’s a lot of people in the industry don’t realise this is the law. And what we’re trying to do is make it simple to audit that. So here, for example, what we’ve done is said these are the key asset types that are mentioned in the regulations.
We need t know what the asset type name is. We need to know the individual reference of the asset, it’s location. If it’s part of a system or a circuit we’ll want to know that as well. And then the manufacturer’s details to make sure that all ties together, the data sheets. And then the installer, commissioner, whoever has inspected it and who’s maintained it. So, what we’re trying to do here is come up with a standard methodology that then everybody knows where they’re going with it. That doesn’t mean, we’re going to need a lot more information on certain types of assets. So on a fire door or something like that you’re going to want to know its fire rating. But we’re trying to do this in a sort of a methodical way that is at least a baseline for people to work to.
And then that means that you can say well, this is what we’re expecting at a bare minimum. If you give us more than that, that’s fantastic, but at a bare minimum that’s what we’re expecting. And the other thing is putting this in some context. So for example here, being able to say we’ve got certainly for existing information, we might have a BIM model, certainly we’ll have CAD data hopefully, drawings. Then one of the challenges is that all of this information needs to be pulled together so that we can then check it and audit it. And the way of doing that is if there is a model then we can use it, but if people have just produced information in schedules, for example, technical submittals and things like that, that can then be added progressively.
But the big thing is that for things that haven’t been modelled we can pick those up from 360 photographs and then be able to then manage that going forward. And we can also then use this to say what’s the critical information like, for example, that damper in the wall, we want to make sure that if this scenario where there is a fire and it collapses, you need to have that so it’s got a breakaway joint so it does’t pull it out of the wall. Now in many cases, as I understand it, the information that you get don’t even tell you where the dampers are. So, what we’re trying to do is make it so we can heighten people’s awareness so we can run scenarios to say a fire breaks out in a kitchen.
We need to prevent smoke from getting into that lobby area there, the stairs. We do that through compartmentation and compartmentation is made up of a number of different asset types, each of which may be inspected. But all of them have got to work together as a system, rather than looking at things individually. Because it may well be that somebody has done fire door surveys and work on your buildings, but that needs to be glued together. We’re doing Greenwich University at the moment, I think there’s 52 buildings that we’re creating a spacial model for each of the spaces so that we can locate where all of the assets are.
But what we’ve also been doing is, quite separately, a company called Golden Thread Fire Delay are doing the replacements, or they’re inspecting the doors and doing repairs where necessary. And they’re using a software application called Onetrace for that. But the important thing is that the compartmentation needs to work, but if that doesn’t work then the smoke control, the detection system and the signage become super critical. So, being able to see all of those things easily and audit them, we can get situations where from a BIM model say, we’ve got the information about that door, the manufacturer is and the like.
But the most important thing is to understand what that door’s doing, what spaces is it protecting. Because as I understand it that’s what has a big impact on its risk. And then what we then want to make sure of is that if there is then other software applications being used by installers and inspectors that it can all glue together. So, this is one example that we’re done recently which is a college in Ireland. We’re doing 6 of these colleges. And in this case the model includes the fire dampers. In this particular case there’s 15 different types of fire dampers, so we’re connecting it back to the manufacturer’s product details.
But what we’ve also got are the documents about that particular asset. And we can produce a very simple 2D plan that makes it easy to see where everything is. So you can interact with that and you know it’s that particular asset. You can also see a schedule of all of the fire dampers, all of the dampers. And then there’s a 360 photo which takes you to that particular item. Which I’d be interested to see whether that sort of joined up process would be useful from your perspective. Because what we’re trying to do is to tie things together. Does that make sense?
PATRICK JULIEN Certainly yes, it would be extremely useful. The issue that we have that Margaret may have alluded in previous conversations is that we don’t have a BIM model. ??? 14 mins 57 secs UCL at this point in time. And it’s also to get the buy in with regards to the management of such a system, the cost etc. But in terms of its concept, yeah, I fully understand and agree that this particular route would be very useful for us at UCL
GEORGE STEVENSON Just to answer that point Patrick is that on existing buildings very few of our clients have got models. So, 90% of the buildings, probably 98% of the buildings don’t have BIM models. And we don’t need them. You don’t need them for asset management. You don’t need them to do what I was just showing you. As long as we can get 360 photos, and there’s some very low cost ways of doing that, then that’s the baseline to work from.
So that’s something that could be done quite easily. If there are BIM models, fantastic. If there’s a business case for BIM models to be created, maybe when additional works are being carried out, then that’s brilliant, we can consume and use those. But where it’s just a normal project where you’ve got buildings and you really want to be able to know how many assets you’ve got in there. Or tie them back to fire risk assessments and things like that, then that’s a way of doing it.
MARGARET SACKEY Just to reinforce I think one of the earlier workshops you were highlighting this issue. The information we get, BIM models, as-builts and so on, we all know the journey. Trying to get the accurate information, in the end it’s taken up to one year to get decent information. And then the BIM models should be used, we spend millions on the things. Then we park it, there are people who keep the model on the server and that’s it. But it was intended to have it used. One BIM model came in and the thing was upside down, the door references weren’t in place, it was wrong referencing and so on. And it takes intelligent, competent people in that field of endeavour to be involved.
And obviously UCL now have got staff involved who can do that, can help. But we should, as was said earlier on in the other workshop we have to use the things. Why do we create them if we’re not using them? And there’s one project that I’ve mentioned before that we’ll name nameless, oh, UCL don’t understand BIM so we’re not going to give them a model. But the designers utilise BIM in developing the design. So, if you’ve used it we’ll have it. But when we get it, what do we do with it?
And eDocs is great, it collects the information, but using the information for the management of the building is the smart thing to do And I know you’ve got good examples Barry and you’ve got good examples George, and hopefully going forward we’ll all sing with the same hymn sheet. That’s actually what we want to do with the information produced out of our projects.
GEORGE STEVENSON I think the important thing to understand is what actually is being procured. So, you might be asking as a client for a BIM model. And you might then say the level of detail that you’re working to and you may have a standard out of he box set of parameters that you’re asking for. But unless you as an organisation are going to check what’s being delivered the likelihood is that people may not deliver it. Because at the end of the day what they’ve got to do is try and deliver what’s needed for them to satisfy the contract.
And in many cases the way models are created is to make sure that they’re producing the right drawings or schedules and the like. And therefore there’s no way that you can assume that you’re going to get the right information. It may well be that for all sorts of contractual reasons you don’t even get the part of the model which actually defines the drawings that have bene produced. Because the drawings may not be something that people want to release.
PAUL OAKLEY Basically you get what you ask for or don’t ask for. So this is what the whole BIM protocol and all the rest of it is, is you need to be clear how you want the models. So it’s things like you want the views, you want them audited, you don’t want duplicate objects. You need the objects to comply with particular naming conventions, you need this data applied to things. All this is sort of all set out within the information requirements that the clients need to identify. And the trouble is they leave it to the so called BIM experts who are working on behalf of the designers or the contractors. And they know nothing about this from an asset management point of view.
MARGARET SACKEY Exactly the point.
GEORGE STEVENSON You’re absolutely right. Andrew made a point earlier on the schools that the department, on that particular occasion when he had an engagement with them, that it was clear they weren’t even checking, they didn’t really understand what they’d asked for, did they Andrew?
ANDREW HANDLEY It’s exactly what’s just been said, it’s experts employed who say look, we’ve come up with a really clever idea. That doesn’t mean that the client understands. And then it just bamboozles people to try and deliver the basics because they get lost in some of the complexity. In this case it was adding extra columns to the COBie worksheets which you could argue is legal, strictly, but it’s awful practice because there are other ways of doing what they were trying to achieve.
GEORGE STEVENSON I’m interested in understanding a little bit more about whether projects…Wei Wan, what do you do?
WEI WAN I work in an architectural practice, mostly for housing. So this is all kind of new to me really. But I know that there’s been quite a lot of talk recently about asset management in the business itself really, so this is something that I’m quite interested in?
GEORGE STEVENSON What, within your own practice?
WEI WAN Yeah.
GEORGE STEVENSON Oh, that’s encouraging. What we’re trying to do is in housing, for example, it’s unusual for models to be commissioned with the level of detail that’s needed for asset management. What typically people are doing is lay outs and things, even models, they are typical layouts of flats, rather than if you’ve got 200 apartments you might have a model for each type of apartment. Which in theory is good, but in practice from an asset management point of view, is really challenging because you don’t know how everything is going to be put together. You might have handed spaces and things like that. Have you ever experienced anything like that?
WEI WAN All the time. I said we work with quite a lot of the housing associations which I think they’re starting to dabble into this world anyway really. So we thought we’d try and get a foothold into what they’re wanting really.
GEORGE STEVENSON OK, well, we also work with my other hat, the Active Plan hat, we work with housing associations. And also within BIM$Housing and BIM In Asset Management, we’ve got lots of housing associations. So, perhaps what we should do is maybe you and I have a one-to-one. I can run through with you what our experiences of that so that you can perhaps draw on that. Would that be useful?
WEI WAN I think it would…we should definitely touch base at some point on this.
GEORGE STEVENSON Patrick, could you explain a little bit more about what you do? What are the issues that you’re experiencing with not having the right information to…what do you do, first of all?
PATRICK JULIEN My title is I’m known as the transition engineering manager. And my role primarily is to review handover documentation that’s produced by our capital projects and transfer them over to the operation team so that they can carry out the planned maintenance and operation systems that we’ve installed. Which obviously includes a review of the health & safety file with Margaret and the O&M file or files that are produced by the various projects. And obviously you can see where this is probably going in regards to issues I’ll have.
Obviously receiving the information in a timely manner, receiving information at all, getting resolution of issues regarding information in a timely manner. It’s a whole host of issues which I think has been covered by our meeting yesterday which unfortunately I couldn’t come to. I’m just writing a message in the chat to say that I’m going on annual leave….so I’ll be dropping off this call shortly to tend to my holiday activities. I thought it was quite useful at this point to make my comments known. So it’s very hard, a vast array of issues that Margaret may have covered yesterday.
But it is a challenge because I deal with all of the projects that are over £2,000,000 and the people running these projects…university project offices and the pro project managers are primarily architects. And because I’m from an M&E background they rely on the contractors to give information regarding the M&E. And they just say they can’t trust the M&E, that the information has been passed correctly from the contractors because they’re not really in a position to review it.
And it sits with me to review and I’m a party of one in my team. I’m supposed to have a team, but obviously for operation reasons it’s down to me at the moment. So it’s quite a challenge for me by myself to manage the review of all of the information that comes in for these projects. So, there’s a whole myriad of issues that I have to wrestle with, but that’s an internal issue sort of thing. But in terms of handover, I think it’s a general thing with not getting information in a timely manner, all the stuff that I previously just mentioned.
GEORGE STEVENSON One of the things, Barry is an expert in 360s and scanning and all of that type of thing. So in other words, creating practical asset information from nothing really, starting off with some things. And one of the key things that he’s doing is making things findable.
BARRY BASSNETT I’m late because a very well-known architectural practice rang me up just 5 minutes before the meeting to say that they have got a £3,000,000 retention on them. And that’s because they’re working with a prison and they’ve given handover drawings, but HM Prison have gone well, the first room that they went into, some of the equipment was on the wrong side of the room. So, they were panicking now because they’ve got to go back and redo all of the as-built drawings. And it’s a £3,000,000 retention on this project, until such time as the handover is done.
And they were panicking because they were thinking well, what can we do in order to scan every room, there’s over 200 rooms. I’m not going to tell you what sort of rooms that they are, but it’s obvious if it’s in a prison. Where things have been refurbished, new AC systems and all sorts of things have been put in, but they’re not installed as designed. And the prison authorities are going well, we’re not paying you until you give us actually updated drawings.
So we’re just going through a mad panic at the moment to figure out how they can get that data very quickly. Bear in mind that this place is now occupied. There’s a massive security issue as well, so they’re looking for the quickest way to go in and scan 360, what they do because they’ve been told that they need to give it dimensionally accurate, to 50 millimetres or 100 mil, but they need to actually draw in place what’s done, and it wasn’t built.
So, what we’re talking about isn’t just a would-like, it’s a commercial reality to some of these contracts. I think in this case some very diligent client rep has talked to HM Prisons and said I’ve just had a look at this drawing and it’s wrong. The retention is £3,000,000 for the OHM manual in which the as-built drawings are included.
GEORGE STEVENSON The odd thing about that is that the duty has dropped to the architect rather than the contractor.
BARRY BASSNETT I don’t know, I think in many cases I think the contract will say that you’re responsible for the drawings and as-built drawings, so it’s up to you to modify. In the BEP plan you’re the custodian of the drawings and if they’re going to be modified then that’s up to you. The contractor may say that, that might be part of the BEP or it might be part of the contractual negotiations. But increasingly what we’re finding is that there are more and more asset owners employing client representatives who are starting to nail people down on this, which is really interesting.
Because they’re saying look, if the OHM manual, if that AC unit is on the wrong wall, well the drawing is wrong. So, they’re panicking now about how they’re going to modify it, or what I can do or they can do to go in and modify the drawings. Or check the validity of the drawings that they’ve issued. Some places might be perfectly fine, but HMP are going no, until we’ve got a new you’re not getting the £3,000,000. And the director of delivery for that construction company, that’s going to go down really badly with his boss, because he should have been on top of that.
But you are getting now the client representatives are starting to go down on that because they’re looking at asset management and they’re going look, it’s part of the OHM manual, there’s a retention on this until you deliver something that is functional. Which is great news for us and great news for the industry because it implies that this is going to impact on safety, fire issues, Regulation 38, coming up with Martyn’s Law. But also just basic fundamental, have you built what you said you were going to build? I mean if there’s a variation that’s fine, the client representative there is to adjudicate between variations of contract to make sure there is no claims either way.
GEORGE STEVENSON The interesting thing with that is that if the client’s representative hadn’t picked up on it, that could well have been passed on to, inherited by the FM contractor.
BARRY BASSNETT And thereby hangs the story of lots of the silos being built up and the FM not having a supervisory, there’s no governance or checking as to whether that data is valid that was going to them.
GEORGE STEVENSON That’s exactly the point. Therefore first of all it means that the FM contractor is probably inheriting a liability. And that liability, if it’s a PPP it could well hit them for 25 years. The fact that it was handed over wrong isn’t a defence because they should have checked it.
BARRY BASSNETT But I think it’s really interesting as a whole new job title coming up which is a more enhanced client representative. Who is over and above, probably not included in the BEP plan but at least he’s working to that. And then trying to justify, his job is to try and make sure that there are no claims for misinformation either way. So the contract is written in a form, we all know contracts are written by construction lawyers to make things as vague as possible so they can put in a variety of claims on top of things. That’s just the nature of the beast.
But what clients are now doing is they’re going actually, we could use a client representative to manage that on a dynamic basis right the way through the project. There is no point doing it at the end of the project with the OHM manuals there, it should be done from day one, from the foundations upwards. For the concrete testing right the way through and cables coming in and services coming in, right the way until they put the roof on or handover the key. And make sure that it’s the right key. Because that has happened, someone has handed over the key and the keys didn’t work.
But I think it’s interesting and topical that I’m actually fielding an inquiry about exactly what you’re talking about. But it’s a practical thing of a retention and this client is refusing to pay until it’s been fixed. The drawing is a true and accurate record. Who’s going to assess that? Well, I don’t know about that, that’s for the commercial people to figure out. But it’s indicative of what is starting to happen in the industry, which is all good news for us.
MARGARET SACKEY Just to pick on Barry’s input. The CDM Regulation 12, the principal designer and principal contractor in law, statute. If you read that guidance there that I’ve put in the chat, they plus all duty holders have duties to make sure in relation to the plan and the file, which includes as-built drawings, have a duty to make sure it’s correct. In law, CDM Regulation 12. Now, that’s why in Transport for London, before I was at University College London, I used to be at Transport for London for 18 years. And right at the end we used to do CDM and BIM together in one course. Because of the BEP and the health & safety file. Or the BEP, and of course which is supposed to respond to the employer’s requirements, information requirements in those days.
Now, employer’s requirements, there is a marrying between the CDM, BIM outputs and of course the Golden Thread. Everything has to fit together and that’s why most organisations with their employer’s requirements. iI it’s not set out properly with what the client wants, they get what the designers decide. And as I said before, designer’s contracts, the people that put the contract together, they’re the ones that decide. So they don’t involve the users, the end users, in that discussion. And they don’t involve the asset managers and facilities managers. So, that’s where it’s all gone wrong.
And for my money, because myself and Patrick we do the health & safety file with these client manager’s that you were talking about. He does the O&Ms and I do the health & safety file. If the as-built is not right it won’t pass. But every designer should be asked to review the as-builts because that is their design. The designer designed that element, whether it’s M&E, structure, whatever it is, they should be asked is this as-built correct. In Transport for London I had a number of designers say the island is not in the right place, in my drawing it should be over there, you’ve put it over there. Change the drawings.
So, the designers have got duties under CDM Regulation 12 because that’s all duty holders. So, you’ve got teeth with the CDM regulations as well as the BEP, obviously the ISO 19650 requirements, and of course now the Golden Thread. So we need raising of awareness and we need education. And that’s one of the reasons why we’ve got these workshops and other things coming up.
GEORGE STEVENSON The Regulation 12 that you just mentioned there, is that Regulation 12 of the building regs?
MARGARET SACKEY The CDM regulations. I’ll put a screenshot in the chat. This is the guidance to the regulations, paragraphs 111 to 115, explains under appendix 3 and 4 the responsibilities of duty holders in relation to the health & safety file, health & safety plan, and what should be done with the information at the end of the project. It’s not as detailed as we would like and that’s why the BSA and the Golden Thread takes it further. I did a project for the Health & Safety Executive on the importance of the health & safety file. And it stops dead with the project, it doesn’t continue in.
Even though it says the client shall keep it up-to-date, which client does that? And going forward with the Golden Thread which UCL are adopting best practice for all projects, not just for HRBs. We want Golden Thread for all building projects. So, CDM Regulation 12, appendix 4, appendix 3 of the CDM regulations, you can take that to the bank.
GEORGE STEVENSON Are they statutory?
MARGARET SACKEY Of course, the CDM regulations are statutory requirement. Now, the guidance is guidance. So, you’ve got to go to the appendix of the regulations which is statute, and of course the guidance, if you don’t do the guidance you’ve got to do something better, haven’t you? You know how it works. If you don’t follow the guidance you’ve got to do something better, you can’t do anything less.
GEORGE STEVENSON Is that right? Is that the way that it works?
MARGARET SACKEY Absolutely, it’s a shame it’s not an approved code of practice which has a higher legal status than guidance, it’s just the way that CDM 2015 ended up. CDM 2007 had an approved code of practice, had a higher level of legal standing that the guidance. But the guidance is guidance, it’s like British Standards. If you don’t follow the British Standard then you do better, don’t you?
GEORGE STEVENSON The reason I’m sort of questioning that is that the logic of what you’ve said is sound. But where you’ve got people that are trying to…it may not be them that’s trying to wriggle, it may be their cost managers or somebody else in the organisation that’s saying well, we’ve not been doing this before, why do we need to do it now?
MARGARET SACKEY Because they didn’t understand.
GEORGE STEVENSON I was asked the other day by a Tier 1 BIM manager who’s trying to do the right job. But he said where does it say in the regulations that we’re supposed to produce an asset list at handover? And I don’t know where there is something that actually says that you’ve got to produce an asset list.
MARGARET SACKEY It won’t be in the regulations, but it will be in your asset information requirements.
GEORGE STEVENSON Well no, not if they don’t put it in.
MARGARET SACKEY If they don’t put it in, that’s the thing.
BARRY BASSNETT If they don’t put it in then they can do what they like. It all comes down to the contract that is given to the supplier. It's what’s built into the contract. If it’s guidance or if you make your EIR or AIR just like it gives a list of the doors, then that’s all that they’ve got to do to comply with, unless ? 44mins 29secs building regulations. So it comes down to the contract that the client gives…and that’s the nuts and the bolts of it. The problem is if you talk to some of the construction people is that they would like to have really strong contracts because then there is no wriggle room. They know exactly what’s going to go.The problem is that most contracts are drafted so that there’s this obfuscation and you can see it two or three ways. You should say we need an exhaustive AIR or EIR and these are what we need. And that should come in the contract…
GEORGE STEVENSON The problem with that Barry, we’ve spent many years trying to get to this. The challenge is, and Paul would reinforce this, the difficulty is that you don’t know what to ask for because you don’t know what’s going to go in that building. So, if you ask for…
BARRY BASSNETT I’m not sure I’d agree with that, if you’re designing a hospital you know what type of kit is going in there.
GEORGE STEVENSON I’m talking about the client.
BARRY BASSNETT Well the client, the client should be the one who if he is asking for a hospital or school, the client should be the one saying what is going to be built.
GEORGE STEVENSON The client won’t know what individual asset types would go into a ventilation system. They don’t have the expertise to know that.
MARGARET SACKEY But they should engage with those that do. They should engage with the end users.
PAUL OAKLEY The problem is the way the main contractors are doing it is they’re saying they want a list of all of the asset types and the properties associated with them. What should happen is basically them and the specialist subcontractors are the ones defining the specific detailed asset types etc. Basically, they should be providing information associated with any maintainable asset or asset that relates to other regulatory requirements. So, we shouldn’t need to say that we have this asset type related to this Uniclass code with this IFC definition and these particular property sets etc The generic things they should just be providing.
GEORGE STEVENSON Absolutely, but even rolling back from that Paul, as you know and I think Andrew would agree. When we’ve actually sat down with the FM experts, they’re the ones that are maintaining the building and you ask them what asset types would you expect to be delivered in this school or in this hospital or in this office, they don’t know.
MARGARET SACKEY But they’re not the people you want, it’s the DLO if you have a DLO. You have maintenance people in all of our establishments.
GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah, I’m talking about effectively the maintenance people, the FM contractors are made up typically of people who have probably in some cases transitioned from…so it would be very interesting. I think this is what we’re trying to do from BIM In Asset Management’s perspective. We’re trying to get to a situation where we can say that for certain types of buildings this is a reasonable set of information for asset types. We’ve actually spent years developing the information asset types that we think are needed for residential.
PAUL OAKLEY Yesterday George and I was on site. I was told by the FM guys, one of the things that I’d said looking at delivering on this was they’re not providing any information relating to valves. And I thought valves would be a key thing that they should be providing asset information. Apparently two guys the day before yesterday spent the whole day trying to find the valves to shut off one of the systems.
GEORGE STEVENSON So, we’re right that that do need valves.
PAUL OAKLEY Yes, which was pretty obvious to us. The guys are absolutely fuming because they could’t find where the valves are.
GEORGE STEVENSON I’m agreeing with everybody that this is something that ought to be in the contractual requirements. What I guess I’m saying is that for commercial teams who are trying to mitigate their risk of maybe a specialist supplier not providing all of the information that’s needed. They are going to be reluctant, and that’s where we’ve got to hold their feet to the fire I guess, to actually put that in to the contract.
ANDREW HANDLEY This is also presuming the contract is actually drawn up with the person who is going to use the building or operate it. If you take an easy example of retail, you build shelves most of the time. You’ve got no idea who’s going to occupy the space. Then say the architects of that shelf, you potentially normally hand that on to someone who is a specialist in doing the fit out. The fit out people then pass that on to an eventual tenant, M&S come along and say yeah, we’ll take the unit. That’s three degrees of separation already.
MARGARET SACKEY But there are standards for the shelves. And those standards will be hopefully what is the basic information that you would use to create and provide that basic unit. And then obviously if someone wants more than that then that’s it. But what I’m trying to understand is why clients do not engage sufficiently with those who are going to use the thing, in order to (as far as you can) deliver. When I first came to this organisation it was project was delivered with a list of 50 items. At the handover they were not delivered because they didn’t engage with the end users. Basic rules of delivering a project, client brief. What does the client want? Engage with the client, engage with the users, design it, get it signed off. Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 4 and then into construction. It’s already there, isn’t it?
BARRY BASSNETT A lot of it is, I’m reminded of a recent story which is local to me and very relevant which is Glasgow Children’s Hospital. Which was designed, but then a fatal flaw in the design was found that the air exchange rate wasn’t good enough to make it healthy, so it wasn’t allowed to open. And then still in remedial works, at some point someone was supposed to specify an air exchange rate which is a critical parameter in a hospital design. You have to have ventilation otherwise if you don’t you get transmission of diseases and stuff. And especially in theatres and things, because the air exchange rate volume wasn’t met, the hospital was unusable. And it’s still in litigation and the problem there is who is responsible for it?
Because there is an accountability and if the designer has designed it wrong then you’ve got a contractual oh, you’ve done this wrong so here’s the penalty. Because this is in millions, this is a hospital which was going to be delayed for a year from being open. Because some architect or HVAC person put it something that just wasn’t up to the job. And that’s just one, there’s lots of other examples where that happens, obviously not as dramatic as that. But it comes down to the clients not understanding what they should put in the contract. And then going with the consultancy company who’s very job is to create more revenue. Consultancy, it’s their job and they get billed on the mitigation and the hours that they put in to fix it.
GEORGE STEVENSON Can I give you another anecdote similar to that. So, John Laing was a big construction company, it doesn’t exist anymore. But the reason that Ray O’Rourke was able to buy it for a pound was because of three contracts that went wrong. And one of them was the National Physical Laboratory at Teddington. And they took on the contract, they won the contract and NG Bailey was the M&E contractor. And when they actually got into it the AIRs had been written by the users. And the AIR was by scientists and they put into the information that the performance requirements for the rooms such a stringent level of air exchange, or air tightness or whatever, that it was actually impossible to deliver.
But nobody had spotted that. And it cost John Laing millions, and delays and all of the rest of it. And it was a perfect storm for them, they had two other projects that also went wrong. Three projects went wrong for them at the wrong time. The other was Cardiff Stadium and I can’t remember what the third was. But that one I thought was amazing because for once they actually got input from the users and it was so, nobody checked what they’d asked.
MARGARET SACKEY But that’s the thing, nobody had checked because contractors are used to having the bland, flavourless contract documents and then they work it out for themselves. So, it works on both sides, doesn’t it? The client must be clear, must engage with the end users who must be absolutely clear what they want. And then on the contractor’s side they should thoroughly understand the contract so that they can deliver it. If they missed it, it was an awful shame, I know John Laing company, I used to work with them in the days of Wimpey. But the thing is that it comes down to competence on all fronts. People must be competent in what they’re doing, whether they’re designing or delivering or even setting the contracts.
GEORGE STEVENSON I’ve found this useful, I hope you have Margaret.
MARGARET SACKEY This is so relevant and so this is what we do day in day out, and it’s refreshing to hear industry people talking about it and saying that it’s got to get better. And the Golden Thread must be for all buildings, not just for HRBs.
CHAT
Sackey, Margaret (External)… All Designers under existing CDM Regulation 12 - must review the final installed design which must be as built !
Sackey, Margaret (External)… All Principal Designers & Principal Contractors - under existing CDM Regulation 12 - must review the H&S file and installed information/drawings which must be as built ! This should include ensuring the designers have reviewed as built drawings to confirm the design is in place as they intended.
Julien, Patrick (External)… Unfortunately, l have to leave the meeting now. I will review the recording when l return from leave and ask any questions or make comments as necessary. Thank you for hosting the meeting.