GOLDEN THREAD TASKFORCE SPECIAL MEETING 01-08-2025
RICHARD FREER Basically, we’re here to set a baseline, a standard of the minimum level of asset information that is required, that can be reused, is repeatable. That’s kind of our baseline job, but it’s not just that because we call it a Taskforce advisedly. Because we’re also open and ready to go out there into projects and advise people in live projects. It’s an active not a passive thing that we’re doing.
GEORGE STEVENSON I think what we probably should do is if people could identify whether they’ve already had an initial meeting with us. Because I don’t want to use this valuable session to go over stuff that people are already aware of. People like Neil, Lewis I think we’ve agreed that we’re going to talk anyway.
RICHARD FREER Is there anybody that hasn’t or doesn’t know the basics about what we’re trying to do? Syprian, anybody else?
GEORGE STEVENSON What I suggest is that I’ve done 15 minute sessions with Victor last week and various other people, Bex as well. What we’re trying to do is have a Golden Thread aware group, so the Golden Thread aware people are a subset of what we’ve got in BIM In Asset Management. People that have got a particular interest in what the Golden Thread means. And what importantly, people like Tom, for example, have been involved in it for years. But what we want to do Tom, is have a coordinated and consistent view of what the baseline is, so that that can be communicated to supply chains and get the basic information right.
Because to be frank, we’re finding that even the basics aren’t being handled properly. And in some cases it’s because too much information is being asked for. And people aren’t thinking, we had a session on schools earlier this morning. On schools, there’s a really rigorous BIM standard been put in place. And what the conversation that we had earlier is the department is not checking it, or doesn’t appear to be. So, they’re asking for very, very significant levels of asset information. But if the industry is trying to do the job and there’s things that they’re asking for that aren’t quite right or that aren’t deliverable, when somebody has gone back and asked them why they want it, they don’t know.
And therefore we as an asset information group, I think it’s a good community for us to look at what good looks like. Not to dumb it down, but to get some baseline information. And then if people can deliver against that then there’s the next level up.
RICHARD FREER It’s the foundations, it’s getting the foundations right.
GEORGE STEVENSON Correct, and to make it auditable, that’s the point.
RICHARD FREER OK, so given apologies to Syprian briefly, everyone here is conversant with roughly our aims and what we want to do, what do we do now? What step are we taking now?
GEORGE STEVENSON This last couple of days, what we’re been doing is identifying specific aspects that we’ve been drilling down on. And by no means will everybody have been able to attend those. For example, we had one yesterday that was very well attended on data engineering and AI. And what we’re trying to do there is to bring together people who are interested in that, so that we can share best practice and also learn from each other. So that we can then have a consistent way of maybe not reinventing the wheel each time. So that if, for example, we’ve got techniques of being able to generate door schedules from drawings, which is what Tim was showing yesterday. That would be a useful thing for maybe Joe to know how to do. The point is we can then elevate that. So, that’s one example.
The others are, we had another one on safety critical assets. Now, one of the main things that people ask for is what asset information do you need. And the safety critical assets, it’s a new group that we’ve set up, we’re going to be tackling that. We’re going to have champions of those safety critical assets. And yesterday we had people volunteer to lead those. The ones that we’ve identified already, there’s fire alarms, sprinkler systems, ventilation systems, in particular dampers and AOVs and things like that, and fire doors. So, if you as a group, know of people who are either installing them or manufacturing them or even designing them.
Remember we’re coming at this, Joe, from an asset management perspective so we don’t want to boil the ocean by opening up all the amazing things that are needed now. But if we can look at things from an asset management point of view, if you know people who are experts in emergency lighting. What came out of the conversation yesterday, when I was talking with the fire damper expert I thought that fire dampers were controlled through the smoke control system or the fire alarm system. But he said no, in many cases there’s a separate control system. Now, in Regulation 38, there is no mention of controls. But actually that in itself is a discipline, isn’t it?
RICHARD FREER There was also that other guy that was talking about actual airflow, which was fascinating. It’s an actual discipline, a very important discipline about how the actual air flowed which was quite extraordinary. The point about this group, it’s proactive. So, when we say if you know anyone, that doesn’t mean if you’ve got somebody on your speed dial, that means maybe go and find someone. It’s bring people in. The Taskforce members, it’s a proactive role. You’re in there and you’re doing stuff, we’re doing stuff and we have aims to do that. So George, that being the case, what are we doing now? Is everybody in this group a member of the Golden Thread Taskforce just because they came to this meeting? No, they’re not.
GEORGE STEVENSON What we’re doing is we’re creating this group that we’ve called Golden Thread Aware. What we mean by that is that you’re aware of our collective interpretation of the Golden Thread. Now, to do that I need a one-to-one 15 minutes with you just to brief you on what we’ve collectively agreed. And also point you at the locations of where the guidance that has already been created, and the new guidance is coming along. For example, we’ve done the surveys at the last three forum meetings, which have been very, very interesting. We’ve had some very interesting results as well.
And we had a big article last week in Construction Manager, the digital construction magazine. And we shared the survey results with the editor and they thought that was fantastic because, from the ground, it’s actually creating Golden Thread awareness, understanding where people are on the scale. So, if you’re interested in becoming a member of the Golden Thread Aware group, we’re not asking you to do anymore work, we just want to make sure that you’re properly briefed of what our collective view is.
The second thing is that we’ve got projects. So, we’ve got the Watney Market project which is a project in East London which is a 1970s market development. And we’re actually going out to tender in probably 2 months time to get somebody to do a scan to asset, rather than scan to BIM process. And we’re opening it up, so we’re explaining to people what we’re doing. And if anybody else has got a project that also requires an existing building, an existing complex to be scanned and turned into asset management. You can join up with that and we can learn from each other, so that we’re not reinventing the wheel. Because it’s quite a challenging thing to do and we want to use the best brains to actually come up with methodologies of doing it.
We’ve already had some really interesting suggestions yesterday from people. And we can shape the tender. We’ve got the data centre one that we did this morning. We’ve also got a healthcare estate that we’re also doing as well. So, we want to bring people along to that and at some stage there’s going to be some paid work from it which you might be interested in bidding for and getting involved in.
RICHARD FREER So basically, in terms of the Golden Thread Taskforce, we’re looking at people who are Golden Thread aware to be involved and help set the baseline. And to become actively involved potentially in live projects which potentially could be paid for. Is anybody interested in that? Is anybody interested in actually getting involved in that or knowing more about it? If you are, put ‘Taskforce’ in the chat and then we’ll be in touch with you for George to do the 15 minutes to explain it thoroughly. Because there is a level of commitment, we need to know that you’re at a level of awareness yourself because the Taskforce, it’s not just a group of volunteers.
It’s a group of people who have a certain level of awareness and knowledge. Because the Taskforce is going out as having a level of expertise to give advice and get involved in projects. George will have the one-to-ones and maybe other members of the Taskforce will get involved in those meetings because that’s what you’ll be doing also. As we get more members, we might ask some of you to do those meetings to make your own judgements on the people and to explain what’s going on. You’re very, very much part of this, it’s not us telling you what’s happening, we’re starting the ball rolling and it’s up to you to keep it going.
GEORGE STEVENSON What we’re trying to do as well is with the BIM4Housing development group and the operations group, which Bex is part of, is to heighten people’s awareness. Not just the people that come to the meetings, which are probably the top 5% in the industry, is other people as well. So for example, what we’re doing is trying to improve the quality of information that’s being handed over under Regulation 38, the fire safety information. And if we’re all singing off of the same hymn sheet it’s going to make it a lot easier for supply chains to provide the information.
We’ve also got the Miro board, these are the sorts of things that I could tell you about if you don’t know already when we have the one-to-one. But even people like Joe who is closely involved in what we’ve been doing, there may be things Joe that you don’t know. Certainly over the last couple of days there’s been some tremendous things that have come out from the discussions. In fact Barry has just been contacted today by an architectural practice who is under the cosh for 3 million pounds worth of penalties because the client has checked what was actually built and things are on the wrong walls.
Now, you might reasonably argue why is the architect responsible for that? But in practice, that’s what was in the contract, they were supposed to produce the as-builts. And therefore the as-builts that they’ve provided are wrong. And what we’re now doing is looking at effective ways of helping them through that situation. So, I think these are the sorts of things that are coming out all of the time from the conversations that we’re having that we can then build on together. We can look at that and say well, how do we actually address that? Are there ways of doing that? And this is a good example that we’ve got where there’s quite a lot of people put information into this now, this Miro board.
For those that don’t know about it, Miro is a platform that allows people to come together collaboratively and share knowledge. And put together maps of how things are connected together. We started this about 9 months ago and it’s getting everybody in the group to collectively interpret the regulations and ask questions and come up with a common interpretation. And I think that’s a really important thing to be able to do because at the moment everybody is interpreting the regulations differently and that’s not very helpful. Particularly if you are then a consultant that’s then advising a client or a supply chain on what to do.
Because you could well be giving them contrary advice, not wrong advice, but contrary advice to something that they’re working on another project and another consultant has told them to do something. This is the initial poll that we did that sparked a lot of interest. 92% said that people were not confident that they would receive the right fire safety information. Now, that’s a staggering thing in today’s environment, given where we are with things. And I can assure you that’s not changed in the last 2 months. So, we need to improve the competence and knowledge of the people that are producing that information.
72% said that they didn’t think that the health & safety file and the O&M information that they’ve got on their existing building, certainly the health & safety file is a statutory duty. And it should be kept up-to-date, but most of them, by some way the majority, felt that that wasn’t being done. Just focusing on the fire & emergency file for a minute, they don’t think that that is accurate. And this is probably the most telling thing, they don’t believe that their CEO or FD, the people with the purse strings, are aware of their duties under the Building Safety Act. So, these are the things that I think we need to work on.
And then the last tow days, we’ve recorded each of these sessions and we’ve also got the transcripts and we’re going to be producing summary notes from them as well. So, we’ve got the safety critical assets so again, if you know anybody that’s a specialist in these areas let me know. We did the AI and data engineering one which was pretty active. We’ve got Watney Market, the data centre, the schools and then we had one a few minutes ago on as-builts using 360s. That’s all I wanted to say on that. I think we now need to open it out to people to see…
RICHARD FREER OK, so let’s talk to some of the people who say that they want to get involved in the Taskforce and let’s hear what they think. We’ve told you our vision, roughly. Obviously you’ll hear a lot more when you speak to George and discuss with him and we’ll take your ideas onboard. Neil Turvey, you want to come onboard on the Taskforce, what do you think we should be doing? We told you roughly what we are looking to do. How does that gel with what you think needs to be done?
NEIL TURVEY It gels completely. We’ve got a lot of experience around the table, we’ve got a lot of industry knowledge. And one thing that we’ve got to do is better prepare those that are coming up through the industry and also to help them understand some of the technical pieces. Because we’ve all done our nine yards, hopefully most of us understand how buildings go together, how it all fits. And it’s trying to explain to them that you can’t just go rapid up to the top. And then secondly, you’ve got to take the legislation apart and see the constituent parts and you’ve got to almost act as a project management plan on it. Because you can’t do everything and you have to then have everything that you need, but who is the best to do it?
And it’s always the key thing in this is having your list of what I would call the key holders. The people that can open the Pandora’s box or the information that allows you to get down to that next level of detail. And also to advise you. And I always say to people when you’re bringing an advisor on a new consultancy, you’ve got to ask 5 or 6 questions to test them before you even let them go on something. Because the history around this room would say to you it doesn’t always work first time. And one of the best questions I always ask a consultant when they land is who’s doing the minutes of the meeting. And if they say you are, you say there’s the door, goodbye.
This comes from all of us. Some of us have got grey hair, some of us have got less hair, some of us have still got some very good hair. But this is what it’s about. And it gets to a point in life where some of us have more time because the kids are luckily going away. And then you start to not have to be a taxi for them to everyone and it’s a chance for you to put your thing back in whilst still learning as well. What ultimately anything of this kind of nature should be is a mutual learning society.
RICHARD FREER Absolutely definitely, and education and the passing on of knowledge is something that we picked up on a lot of our roundtables over the last few years. And it’s something that we realise very much, which is part of the Golden Thread Taskforce mission in going out there. One of our big promotional things within BIM In Asset Management at the moment is the 360 digital asset capture. Because you can do that, somebody can go out there, not very skilled, with a camera and then have the assets all tagged from a room. If somebody is sitting at t laptop they can look at those images and tag them.
And that person could be somebody who’s been doing this for 30 years and training some kid how to do it and imparting their experience. And this is something we’er very big on and it’s totally intrinsic to what we were saying earlier about actually getting out there in projects. We’re not just figuratively getting out there in projects, not just sitting at a desk having a meeting and coming up with a load of words, or even coming up with a load of baselines. We’re out there in the market, we’re out there actually doing it. Victor, what do you think we should be doing with the Taskforce? And why do you want to get involved?
VICTOR SNOOK From my perspective I want to get more of an understanding of what the industry feels. Because to me it’s all about consistency and making sure that we’re all aiming towards a consistent delivery of asset data. Which i think from my experience is patchy, to be honest, the projects that I’ve been in with asset data.
RICHARD FREER And what will you be bringing?
VICTOR SNOOK I guess the experience that I have got in schools and some experience on nuclear power stations. But I’ve just got a contract with a energy supplier. So, one of the reasons that I want to get involved in this is because I’ll be doing all of the asset information for a big energy supplier, power T&D, that kind of assets. But one of the things that I’ve experienced in the past is the fact that a lot of people realise that they need to capture asset data, but they don’t necessarily need and understand what they can do with it in the end.
Especially around the kind of COBie stuff. You produce a COBie sheet because you have to, but it just sits in somebody’s folder and you don’t actually do anything with it. The only one that I’ve bene involved in that has actually used that successfully was Heathrow. And that’s because they had Maximo and they actually fed Maximo. So, you had an end to the asset data, you had somewhere to feed it, rather than it just being a tick box that you have to produce data. You produce it because it’s in the contract.
GEORGE STEVENSON We’ve got quite a few new people, so if you don’t mind Richard, I’d like to just skip around and just find out. Because some of the people I know already. In fact I spoke to Victor last week. Matt Knowles, where are you from?
MATT KNOWLES I’m from Willmott Dixon. I’m a digital construction manager in the north region. Primarily we’re working on a lot of Department for Education frameworks at the moment and just the whole process of a DfE framework. We just want to see how we can better improve the asset handovers of DfE framework, especially with the new framework coming in next year. Just trying to get people onboard and understand that the assets that the customer requires are assets that we have to deliver.
And how we keep the Golden Thread of information, relaying that back down the line to consultants and the supply chain and just getting them onboard. It is important and it’s a requirement, it’s not just us banging the drum for Golden Thread, there’s a whole process and methodology of working that kind of backs up the entire system. And I just want to get a bit more knowledge on everyone else’s opinions and ideas around the industry really.
GEORGE STEVENSON I think what you’ve just said there is music to my ears. Because it actually reinforces the value of this particular methodology of working. Because Andrew Simpson is there as well and Andrew is from Bowmer and Kirkland, and we had a session earlier and Mo also was on it as well. They are both working on schools. And there was a lady called Elenor who’s working on schools Waites. And Lewis is on here as well. So, actually we’ve got probably the A-team from the industry. Matt, you can join what we’re doing.
The point is it’s a great example because I think what we’ve agreed in the last meeting is that what would be really useful is for us to, as a group, come together with a practical implementation of what good looks like as far as an asset handover for schools is concerned. And then we can actually collectively go back and talk to the department about that.
MATT KNOWLES I think one of the biggest issues that we have at the moment is the amount of TAs. And I think it probably recalls back onto something you were saying earlier is, we’ve got ten different TAs with ten different interpretations of what the customer wants. And we’re going in the port of call where we’re going to stick to our guns with one TA and that’s our method of working.
ANDREW SIMPSON Join our headache, exactly the same problems. And I think Lewis said the same thing as well.
LEWIS DUELL I think that I mentioned on the previous call about skills how every tier that we work with has a different method of checking their models, they interpret the results very differently. And even down to their KPIs for passing the information it’s very different per tier.
MATT KNOWLES Yeah exactly. And I think that goes back to the Golden Thread. How it links back is we need to make sure that the asset is contained how the customer wants it in one point of reference, rather than ten different points of reference. So, if we’re interpreting it ten different ways, how do you keep that continuity between the customer requirements and what we’re delivering if people can’t have a singular method of working?
GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah, I think the important thing here is that if we can actually get some standardisation in terms of what is supposed to be being delivered, then it means that we can start to use a lot of the tools that we were showing yesterday to audit in an automated way. So that then it means that we haven’t got the same sort of manual effort that needs to go in. And importantly you don’t get so many mistakes.
MO SHANA’A I’m definitely seeing the point around TAs and Tier 1s as well. Any Tier 1s, design firms, look at the few companies, every single company will implement things really differently. And there are really valid reasons I think why that happens. But I think it’s also partially because there’s a disconnect between, there is a gap. There is the standard and there is what is required, generally speaking, and then there is the way that implement things. And the bigger the gap the more room there is for people to go I think I want to do it that way. So, what I generally think the industry really needs is demonstrators.
We need to go into the details of if we were to do a Building Safety Act compliance statement, along with trackers across all Gateways. And if we had EIRs and if we had information delivery plans and if we had X number of things, what should they look like for a high-rise building? What should they look like for a school? What should they look like for each? And the more detailed that we get, if then a group of us agree on this is a good example. I’m not saying that people won’t deviate from that, but it makes it much harder. People are less likely to deviate when they see that something is working and has thought through the different elements.
One thing I’ve really wanted to do for schools, for example, is we know all of the documents that are required for a school. If we go down including the strategy documents and execution plans and so on and so forth. If we go through all of them and go if we wanted to deliver the ideal school and utilise the data. And we want to do it from the very beginning all the way until handover, what does that actually look like in an ideal world? And have that as an example that people can start looking at when they’re actually implementing these projects.
And I think if we do that, that removes the need for people imagining things, and when people need to imagine less then they’ll deviate less and we’ll actually get more standardisation. It won’t happen by forcing it, but it will happen if we have really, really good examples for people to work off.
GEORGE STEVENSON Yes, one of the things with that, what we’ve been trying to do to achieve that is look at how we can encourage people to use better standardisation, standards in terms of information. So, if I just show you a quick example of what we’ve already covered, to an extent, but most of the people on this call may not have done. Because we had BESA and SFG20 on the meetings yesterday and today and they are very keen on doing things. But let’s use common data standards properly and one of the things is that 19650 is great, but it’s far too high level for looking at asset information.
And if you then drop down into IFC, for example, that probably comes up with a whole range of different information sets that have principally been put together for designers. So, one of the things that we’re exploring at the moment is to actually use the government standards, which may not be perfect. FMSOO2 is being rewritten at the moment. But what it’s got is a standard methodology for how you describe floors. Now, I know that might sound daft, but if everybody could describe floors in the same way, whether it’s a school or a hotel or a housing association or whatever, I think that would be helpful.
Also to be able to define how we actually hold the information about buildings. And also assets and spaces and things like that.So, by doing this it means that we can start to do stuff which can ten be reusable in lots of different contexts. Now it’s interesting that as far as Regulation 38 is concerned, what we’re trying to do is to say right, at the very basic level we need to know all of the asset types that are in the regulations. Now that’s not difficult to determine. And the most important thing is it’s what’s legally required. The contractors have got to legally provide this information in a clear and consistent way. And the customer, the client has got to sign off that they’ve had it all.
Now, we’re not actually asking for a lot of BIM detail, or even detailed product information. We’re not saying this is enough, by the way. We’re not saying that this is what is the optimum standard. What we’re actually saying is that you need to know what the asset is, where it is, who made it, what circuit it’s on, who installed it, who commissioned it. All common sense stuff, but actually in handover information we find that’s almost impossible to get to. And it should be straightforward. So, this is an example of a baseline set of information. And when we showed this to the development group in BIM4Housing everybody thought it was a great idea.
And Notting Hill Genesis said we’re going to implement this and so did one of the other housing associations on the call. And we said well, hang on a minute, let’s make sure that we’re implementing it in the same way. Because if we don’t do that then a contractor that’s doing work for Southern or Notting Hill Genesis or Peabody, they’re going to be asking for slightly different information. And it’s going to be a lot easier if we actually go through that process in a consistent way.
RICHARD FREER What’s the process? You’re saying that we need this, tell me how we do that? Tell me what we do.
GEORGE STEVENSON First of all, we want people to agree that they will implement whatever standard we collectively come up with. And then…
RICHARD FREER The standard we collectively come up with.
GEORGE STEVENSON That, that I’ve just shown you there.
RICHARD FREER Whose collective?
GEORGE STEVENSON People in the BIM…
RICHARD FREER In the Golden Thread Taskforce are we going to have a meeting and decide this? How are we going to do it? That’s what I’m asking you, the methodology.
GEORGE STEVENSON I guess I’m turning it round now on the group to say how do we best communicate this to clients, to colleagues.
RICHARD FREER No, we haven’t got a this yet. We haven’t got a baseline yet. I’m asking you how we get the baseline?
GEORGE STEVENSON We’ve got the baseline.
RICHARD FREER Where is it.
GEORGE STEVENSON I’ve just shown it to you.
RICHARD FREER Oh right, so the groups buy in to a baseline that’s already there.
GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah.
RICHARD FREER Right, OK.
GEORGE STEVENSON I’m sorry, we covered this a couple of months ago. Everybody that was on those meetings agreed with it.
RICHARD FREER those meetings yeah, but there’s a lot of new people, that’s what I’m trying to say.
GEORGE STEVENSON I agree and that’s the point of the one-to-ones. Sorry Richard, you’re absolutely right.
RICHARD FREER George, I know, I want to make it clear to everyone that’s new in the group. You know I ask questions for the group rather than for myself.
GEORGE STEVENSON Absolutely. Does anybody object to the idea of having a standardised set of information requirements for fire safety?
BERNARD HORNUNG George, I think that is imperative. I think it’s a must have because all of your hard work, and `i understand Richard’s concerns which I think have now been put to bed. But those of us who have been listening to you and understand most of these issues can only learn more by disciplining ourselves to focus upon the work which you have done and have this baseline. It’s a baseline which can always be improved upon. Nothing in life stands still, we’re discovering new things all of the time. But unless we have a baseline, unless we have general consensus, it’s going to be very difficult for anybody to implement anything. Or indeed for anybody to improve anything. So, I think this is an absolute imperative,
GEORGE STEVENSON Thank you Bernard. I would just correct you. What you’re saying I’ve done, i’ve not done it. What I’ve done is basically curated the knowledge of the groups that, certainly you’ve been part of those groups Bernard. But what we’re doing is interpreting and pulling back what is required. So, I think that’s what we need to do going forward and we’ve got rich source. I think one of the biggest challenges that we’ve got is we’re overwhelmed with guidance We’re overwhelmed with legislation. And we’ve also got lots of people who are interpreting that legislation and interpreting that guidance slightly differently.
For reasons that are quite reasonable, because it’s very difficult if you’re an expert to talk to somebody else who’s an expert, to find somebody else that is on your same wavelength. And to a great extent that’s what I’m hoping this Taskforce enables people like Andrew and the colleague from Willmott Dixon that was talking earlier to be able to do that. SallyAnne, you were invited I think yesterday by one of your colleagues, is that right?
SALLYANNE LEES Yes, I am the new head of building safety at MTVH, just a few months in from a fire safety background. So, i’ve worked along side the BSR in the new regime with fire & rescue services and recently moved over to MTVH. So, I’ve been invited in and thank you, I ‘m just trying to really get a feel for what the industry is and looking across all of these work groups and task force to do with the information. I’ve spent a lot of time demanding that the information is there and now I’ve got to work out how i’m going to get it to present to regulators myself.
GEORGE STEVENSON You’re very welcome and I can also introduce you to a couple of other people who have got similar background to you actually. Do you know Lucy Keene?
SALLYANNE LEES I don’t, no, but I’m really keen to start meeting a lot more people around this side of the industry. Obviously with an enforcement background I need to start making some new contacts this side. So, any introductions that you think will be positive, please pass my email address around.
GEORGE STEVENSON Yeah, I’ll try and make a direct introduction because Lucy, she’s with Abrey and she’s also come from an enforcement background, so that would be good to pull that together.
JONATHAN HINTON I just wanted to answer your question about 8 minutes ago. I’m learning on some other aspects about your fire safety door things. I come from an emergency lighting aspect. I sit of the ICL committee currently, I’m heavily involved in previous to the product development testing of luminaires. And emergency lighting I see as per one of your previous pages in your spreadsheets, the handover documents are horrendous. And I’ve done lots of fit outs of large retail in my previous role in supermarkets, hospitals.
And I find it is staggering that where we think, and I’ve bene a consultant for 10 years, and we specify equipment and we go to site and we find that it’s nothing. Some value engineering has gone on at some point and we haven’t been involved and there’s not the emergency lighting that we were expecting in the buildings. And it’s quite horrifying to see. So, I’m coming across and joining these groups really on that aspect of the asset management and I see it going forward now. Before, in my honest opinion I had sat back from these, I was requested to join, I sat back from it for a while.
But now I actually have got involved a little bit more and I’ve seen some horrendous installations. And I thought right this is really a big thing now. And that’s my aspect and my approach being on these committees is to see if I can help in my area of expertise.
GEORGE STEVENSON That’s brilliant. Just to make you aware, what we’ve done over the years, we’ve created guidance which some of the other experts in the industry have helped with. So in this particular one we’ve got a 17-page document that we’ve pulled together, i don’t know if you know Peter Thornes, this was done originally. And the point is to everybody, we’ve actually got this for 12 critical asset types. And we’ve gone through what risk does the asset mitigate, what do people do to assets to stop them from working, what information do we need to know about them. And what tasks and procedures are needed, what level of competency is needed and how should products be changed.
So, just to give you a quick overview just so you can see the level of detail. What is emergency lighting and then what are the component elements that go to make it up. So, it’s not just an asset in itself, it’s obviously a system that’s made up of a lot of key components. Would you agree this has got some good information?
JONATHAN HINTON Yeah, absolutely, it’s all about again traceability as well. I’ve been to a previous site where I was called to site where the client was saying that our light fittings were catching fire, they were lighting. And it’s like crikey, you get straight on in the car and drive to site and you look at the light fittings and what had actually happened was the contractor had actually bought standard fittings and done emergency conversions of the standard fittings because they didn’t want to buy the designed emergency light fittings of the manufacturer.
And that was horrifying to think and that was in educational student halls that had maybe a couple of thousand of these light fittings, So, I’ve seen lots of different things and also Ok, as a manufacturer some manufacturers timelines don’t tie in with the fit out. Whereas timelines change and suddenly the manufacturer is caught out because the order is placed on the 11th hour and they’re expected to deliver the emergency lighting within the next day and you just can’t do that. And some other emergency lighting gets bought from a wholesaler or where ever they want to buy it, someone can supply it. And you got to site and at the end of the day when you see the handover and you just realise that they’re not what was designed.
GEOGE STEVENSON Jonathan, I’d very much like to bring that together with you, so maybe we can pick that up next week for the week after, I’ll get in touch with you. That’s brilliant, thank you.
MARC GUILFOYLE I’m just sat in with Lewis Duell from BIMbox, I’m a BIM consultant of about three years now. I’m just going through shadowing and trying to gain a bit more experience.
GEORGE STEVENSON OK, I’ll pick up with you and Lewis separately then. Jacob Davies, have we spoken yet?
JACOB DAVIES We’ve not spoken yet, only briefly in one of these meetings. I’m an asset and programme manager at B&D Reside. We’re an ALMO that have been in existence for several years now, but we’re starting to take on more stock from Barking & Dagenham Council. I’ve come in and I’m now in the process of setting up an asset hierarchy. And I’ve been actually using a lot of the BIM4Housing tool kits as part of that. And I’m trying to combine as many different standards as possible, just so that we’ve got consistent methodology of actually gaining data, part of it. And trying to align it with COBie as well so that we can bring on new build data in the future and so that it doesn’t just sit in a spreadsheet.
GEORGE STEVENSON Jacob, we’ll have a session because I know Aloysie quite well and also Victoria Ayre who’s on the development side. So, let’s set up a specific session on that.
VASILEIOS MALIGKOS I’m recently a couple of years ago I became head of digital construction in my organisation. It’s called CJ O’Shea, we’re a main contractor in London, but we’re a developer as well. My background is structural engineering, but I’ve been working as a project manager for the last 8 years in London. So, I have a good understanding of construction from within. And I’ve been in the position I’m in now and I’m trying to find ways to actually streamline our processes of gather data from sites, good data.
Because sometimes not all of the data comes from sites, but sometimes there are people within the sites that are involved in gathering this data. So, they need to be educated, have a little bit more awareness regarding the Golden Thread. All of these concepts that to some people to a degree are new, or they don’t know about it. So, I’m trying a lot to get this information out to sites and develop our processes within our organisation regarding the Golden Thread, how we’re going to cope with that.
GEORGE STEVENSON OK, I think we can have a direct contact and I can bring Mo in as well because he’s been doing some great work on that.
VASILEIOS MALIGKOS I’ve talked with Mo before and we’re exploring to work together as well.
GEORGE STEVENSON Great, that’s what this collaboration really is all about, bringing together people.
VASILEIOS MALIGKOS This is my first meeting, I think it’s really interesting. I’ve been browsing the sites the last few weeks and there is a lot of interesting information in there. So, it’s really nice for this initiative.
HAJAR MOSHFEGHNIA TOUCHAEI It's the first time I think I'm speaking with you. I just recently joined the Asset Management Monthly forum. So, I am a PhD student in the University of Salford. My research is actually about the BIM implementation in the housing association across the UK. So what I'm trying to do, I try to develop a framework based on the current framework that you have like the standards in the ISO 19650 and the BIM4Housing to just find out what the gaps is. And also from another side, from the people process and technology side, try to find the barriers and the gaps. And then I try to develop a framework based on that.
So, I am the first year actually a student and I think so from the second year as I need to just collect some data. I really like to actually be connected with their professionals in the industry, especially the people who are working for the BIM4Housing, or the people from the housing associations, to collect some data from them. So it's going to be really great if we can have some meetings later if you have some time, especially with Richard or George or everyone who are actually interested to have some collaboration regarding that.
RICHARD FREER That’s great, we’ve had a lot of students actually come through BIM4Housing who have actually gone on to great things. So, I’m quite sure that if you’re coming on to our meetings you’ll find a lot of things of value, and quite unique things possibly, to put into your thesis. So next steps. Anybody that actually wants to be a part of the Golden Thread Taskforce put ‘Taskforce’ in the chat and George and maybe another Taskforce member will have a 15-20 minute chat with you and we’ll take it from there. The next meeting for those members of the Golden Thread Taskforce will likely be in September.
GEORGE STEVENSON I would suggest that people might want to look at the summaries of what we’ve done these last two days. And also if you’ve got people on the call that are interested in data engineering or AI or these other things. It’s important, Sally for example, you wouldn’t need to know data engineering, I’m not saying that you don’t. But if you’ve got a problem that you think something could be solved with then you’re very welcome to join the group.
Because what we’re trying to do is the people that have got the problems and understand what answers they’re looking for, they are very valuable to us. Because that’s the nub of what we’re trying to get to. We’ve got lots of smart people who are able to extract information, but actually knowing what the problem is and then doing something with the information is actually very useful.
SALLYANNE LEES Obviously I’ve only just started coming to any of these meetings this week, so trying to get a flavour of which ones are the most appropriate, which ones I would be able to add value to. But yeah, the Golden Thread is really handled with our information team so I think they’re probably the ones that come here.
GEORGE STEVENSON What I would like to say Sallyanne, is that actually leaving it to people who are the information geeks like me is probably not a good idea. Because the connection needs to be coming from you who have the problem because they may come up with solutions that are maybe too complex. Or they may not realise there’s actually quite a simple way of delivering what you need. So, please keep engaged from that point of view.
SALLYANNE LEES Absolutely and we’ve got a very big focus on safety case reports and doing that side of it, of which the Golden Thread is a huge part of being able to produce that because we’ve got to have all of the information there. So, it’s just making sure that we’ve got the right level of focus on in every direction to be able to get to those end goals which is quite important. And any problems coming through with Golden Thread and updating everything leaves us unable to produce a decent safety case report at the end of it. So, I’m very interested in all of these meetings.
RICHARD FREER At the end of the day, part of our aim is to be a resource, collectively.
GEORGE STEVENSON Just on that Sally, on the Watney Market project, which it might be useful to watch that one. Because what we’re doing there, this is a project for Tower Hamlets, they initially asked us to just do a scan and produce a BIM model. And I said what do you want to do with it and they said it’s principally driven for fire safety. OK, what about building safety? And they said yeah, that’s important for us to have as well. And then we said well, actually if you’re going to do it for fire safety you also need to engage with the small works team.
Because it’s actually the small works team that often will run projects where they go through compartmentation. And then also surely if you’re going to do this work, it would be useful to be able to understand what the ventilation is like in the building. Because otherwise it may be that you’ve got to revisit that and do mould. So, the reason I’m saying this is that the approach that we’re taking is to be the intelligent client to be able to help people understand what’s possible.
Because we’re going to be going out to tender for surveyors to do a lot of the scanning and things, but what we want to do is make sure that we can brief them properly so that we can find smart ways of getting the information that’s needed. So, I’d be very keen to get you involved in that because I think you may be able to find that useful within a huge organisation like Metropolitan. Because I imagine that your fire safety people are almost, I’m not saying they’re a different silo….
CHAT
Joe Stott (External)… No separate meeting for me but i think i understand what we are hoping to achieve.
Bernard Hornung (Unverified)… I am very interested in joining this group as much of my work over the past 5 years was directly related to internal airflow.
Chris Bicknell (External)… Afternoon all. Stalking at the moment as have another contractor meeting going currently. Ill check out the recording for parts I miss. Thanks. Chris
victor snook (External),,, I also would be interested in joining the aware group.
Pencho Studenkov (External)… Receiving Regulation 38 fire safety information is also a statutory duty - The Building Regulations 2010
Sackey, Margaret (External)… Hi Richard, George, we shared earlier The Building Safety & Golden Thread Fire Safety Conference - 3rd Sept. 2025. This conference will highlight how much change is needed in our built environment industry. Please see registration details - The BSA & Golden Thread Fire Safety Conference - Date: Wednesday 3rd September 2025 - Registration: 08:30. Conference: 09:00-16:30. Email: Info info@goldenthreadfiredelay.com https://goldenthreadfiredelay.com/bsa-golden-thread-fire-safety-conference/
Pierre Venter (External)… Standardised approach, data structured, and workflows to match RIBA, Milestones, Gateways
Simple audit process, and quality checking
Joe Stott (External).. There is a huge need for a standard method of development and delivery of the DfE's requirements. Whilst we are achieving the requirements currently i cant exactly say it is efficient or easily repeatable across different projects / contractors.
Andrew Simpson (Unverified)… Not daft at all re floor naming - common issue
Chris Bicknell (External)… Look at the forthcoming updated BS 8544 Lifecycle Cost in Use standard - Consider Operational driven data from the outset of the design process. Common Data Standards fed from Ongoing management lifetime needs as a fundamental parat of the mix. We are finalising this standard at the moment so watch this space.
Pierre Venter (External)… How many contractors are out there, by Size. White Van sub-contractors also have a need to deliver the data. This is a large requirement. IMO
Andrew Simpson (Unverified)… task force - tied in with dfe and university student accommodation theme - we have a project requiring BSA
Joe Stott (External)… The collective recommendations need to be communicated to the clients / DfE and we all need to be towing the line regarding the need to standardise the requirements and methodology. My concern with where we are right now is that we are currently hugely inefficient and reactive as oppose to honing our methods and gaining efficiencies.
Sackey, Margaret (External)…. Hi George - Is the output you shared available ?
Andrew Simpson (Unverified)… Will all info/slides be shared from the sessions over the last 2 days? To review summaries too.
Sackey, Margaret (External)… Hi Vasileios & Other Civil and Structural Engineers on this call - It is great to hear from you. The ICE and IStrucTE have progressed much in this area.
Buildings Safeguards and ICE Safety Risk Advisory Group.
ICE want to 'Spur on Tangible Improvements in building Safety Practices
The ICE 'The safety risk review Report launched last month with its review of built environment and infrastructure safety.
See Linked In Post -summarised below.... https://lnkd.in/efVUcwGu -
- 'This safety risk review acknowledges that there are cultural and operational failings in the construction industry, as highlighted by the Grenfell Tower Inquiry, which have held back effective safety risk management.
- The report stresses that the ICE must challenge harmful practices and other industry norms that prevent engineers from fully applying their expertise to improve safety outcomes.
- The review “recognises the industry’s inadequate response to the Grenfell tragedy so far”, as highlighted by the current ICE President, Professor Jim Hall. “The reaction of professional institutions and the industry as a whole to the disaster has been widely criticised as insufficient,” he added.
- “The ICE accepts this and is strengthening its leadership role to spur tangible improvements to safety practices and enhance public trust in the profession.”
- ICE should be congratulated for this report. There will be questions over aspects of the report and the action plan proposed. The real test will be in the implementation, and enforcement of its recommendations to all ICE members and industry partners, a major step forward.
A safer built environment for all by Patrick Hayes, IStructE.
Technical Director, The Institution of Structural Engineers
See a useful Linked In Post - A Safer Built Environment for All.
https://www.istructe.org/resources/blog/a-safer-built-environment-for-all-by-patrick-hayes/
The recently held Structural Safety and Risk Conference, was chaired by Emily Harbottle, founder and CEO of Cascade Risk Management.
Thirteen expert speakers took part in this timely event to examine key safety issues and offer insights to mitigate risk and create a safer built environment for all.
It was a clarion call for a new philosophy centred on accountability and a risk-based approach to decision making. At a time when structural engineers and professions across the built environment are being challenged to manage more complexity and delivery efficiencies to tight deadlines then reducing errors, minimising risk and improving safety are critical for us all.
Learning from others
Seeking to learn from other sectors, Emily opened the conference with valuable insights about safety failures from her career serving in the British Army as a pilot. She spoke openly about how risk can increase when systemic organisational failures are not addressed, from poor leadership to lack of accountability - issues that manifest in both the private and public sectors, including the built environment.
Joe Stott (External).. love to be part of the schools discussions. I have alot of experience in educational work both schools and Universities and can hopefully contribute to these discussions. (not sure if there are ant future sessions planned)
Sackey, Margaret (External).. We shared earlier The Building Safety & Golden Thread Fire Safety Conference - 3rd Sept. 2025. George will be facilitating some of the conference which will highlight how much change is needed in our built environment industry. Please see registration details -
The BSA & Golden Thread Fire Safety Conference - Date: Wednesday 3rd September 2025 - Registration: 08:30. Conference: 09:00-16:30. Email: Info info@goldenthreadfiredelay.com
https://goldenthreadfiredelay.com/bsa-golden-thread-fire-safety-conference/